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"Anti-Muslim" Article in Maclean's Fosters Hatred: Canadian Islamic leaders
by Barry Artiste | June 3, 2008 at 08:49 am | 612 views | 35 comments
Opinion
Barry Artiste, Now Public Contributor
Canadian Islamic Congress - president Mohamed Elmasry of Ottawa we all remember in 2006 who said on National TV on the Michael Coren Show that Western women (whose dress and makeup) are pieces of meat, who deserve to be raped by Muslim men, opened a can of worms the world over, Muslims, Men and Women as well as all religions and the public, including the Media were stunned by his statement and further inflamed many by also stating it is okay to kill israeli children in the Islamic Jihad.
Certainly a turn about face when a BC Human Rights Commission rears it's Ugly Head and throws out "Free Speech" when Elmasry, whose Free Speech on National TV is okay, yet when a Magazine mentions anything Muslim. Though Elmasry touted both Islam and Muslim as a World Ideology and Peoples to be a force to be reckoned with as a world growing population. MacLeans perhaps showed the side of Muslims unfairly. Muslims, not Elmasry, should counter the MacLeans article and open dialogue refuting it or agreeing, that is their right as Canadians, not the BC Human Rights Commission.
The Big Brother is BC Human Rights Commission, is an "USELESS Coffee Clatch " of an organization in which the Commission will tell British Columbian's what to think and say, write, print and act in their daily lives.
There is noting wrong in promoting one's culture and flourishing, but not at the expense of eradicating another culture. Of course as Dr. Elmasry stated in the media more times than I would like to remember, his ambition is to convert the entire World to Islam "Whatever it Takes"!
George Orwell was right when he stated "Big Brother" is watching you, Big Brother's best ally is " Dr. Elmasry.
VANCOUVER - A B.C. human rights commission hearing room became the battle ground Monday for a fight between Canadian Islamic leaders who say their community has been painted as a threat to Western society and a Canadian magazine that says it will defend freedom of the press.
Two prominent Muslim leaders have demanded Maclean's magazine give them an opportunity to respond to an October 2006 article they call "flagrantly anti-Muslim."
The complaint was filed with B.C.'s Human Rights Tribunal by two members of the Canadian Islamic Congress - president Mohamed Elmasry of Ottawa and B.C. congress director Naiyer Habib - on behalf of B.C. Muslims.
The complaint stems from the article by columnist Mark Steyn, titled "The future belongs to Islam."
Below is the Story in MacLeans which started it all.
The future belongs to Islam
The
Muslim world has youth, numbers and global ambitions. The West is
growing old and enfeebled, and lacks the will to rebuff those who would
supplant it. It's the end of the world as we've known it. An excerpt
from 'America Alone'.
MARK STEYN | Oct 20, 2006
MARK STEYN
-->
Sept. 11, 2001, was not "the day everything changed," but the day
that revealed how much had already changed. On Sept. 10, how many
journalists had the Council of American-Islamic Relations or the
Canadian Islamic Congress or the Muslim Council of Britain in their
Rolodexes? If you'd said that whether something does or does not cause
offence to Muslims would be the early 21st century's principal
political dynamic in Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, Belgium, France
and the United Kingdom, most folks would have thought you were crazy.
Yet on that Tuesday morning the top of the iceberg bobbed up and
toppled the Twin Towers.
http://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/article.jsp?content=20061023_134898_134898
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June 3, 2008 at 08:49 am by Barry Artiste, 612 views, 35 comments
Author
Crowd Power
Barry Artiste
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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Comments (35)
at 09:21 on June 3rd, 2008
good story, Barry, but needs a little more clarification.
at 10:24 on June 3rd, 2008
Thanks for the comments and the Flag Rene, what more clarification does this story need? I thought it speaks for itself?
at 13:07 on June 3rd, 2008
The headline should read, "Anti-Muslim story on Now Public Promotes Hatred."
This is not a "story" at all Barry it is a blatant bigoted racist rant. Good catch René! What clarification?! The need for such is glaringly obvious. You attribute many statements to this man, Elmasry. Substantiate your claims. Do you have links to quotes, stories, transcripts, videos? If he even said what you claim what was the context of those statements? Is he maybe reacting to the kind of racism I read in your "opinion" this morning?
When the B'Nai Brith attempt to censor any negative statements against Israel, using the human Rights Commission do you speak out against that? Of course not 'cause Israel are our pals!
Do you believe that even if he did make those statements, the facts of that matter being extremely dubious, all Muslims should be condemned and just suck it up? Do you believe that their should not be a mechanism in Canadian jurisprudence to examine this kind of situation and ascertain whether indeed McLeans crossed the line into promulgating hatred against all Muslims?
If I had a dime for every email loaded with anti-Muslim racist garbage I get from "good" people I'd be rich. Racism is alive and well in Canada.
Thank goodness Canada does have a Human Rights Commission and that people who hold your opinions are in a minority and don't reflect the beliefs of most Canadians nor the system we live in!
at 18:59 on June 3rd, 2008
moonwolf, in the past you have cried foul whenever someone, either on NP or elsewhere, has called for the killing of people. This is true, no?
Well, HERE is a link to the transcript where Elmasry says that any Jew in Israel over the age of 18 is a legitimate target for killing. Mr. Elmasry defended this statement by declaring that he was just going along with the accepted Palestinian position - that any Jew over 18 is a legitimate target.
So, moonwolf, if someone said that any Arab in the West Bank or the Gaza Strip over the age of 18 was a legitimate target, would you accept this position as legitimate? I'm guessing the answer is no.
moonwolf, why do you always jump to defend people like Mr. Elmasry?
at 16:02 on June 4th, 2008
Big T, Interesting. The Zionist Jews consider anyone at all who is not Jewish a goy and as such if goy get in the way of God's will for His Chosen People they are fair game. The Zionist state in Israel kills Palestinian women, children and babies with impunity on a regular basis, and has thousands of children under the age of 15 in prison for protracted periods of time without charges, communication with their families or redress of any kind and not a peep about any of that from you Big T, nor any self-righteous anti-muslim ranters in the west.
The Israelis regularly press for all out attacks on a country of 80 million innocent muslim/jew/christians, which has never attacked its neighbors, based on trumped up accusations of "weapons of mass destruction", and statements from one of its leaders that were purposefully mistranslated and then spun to a gullible western public while harboring their own secret atomic arsenal, having a well documented and very public history of attacking all their neighbors at the slightest provocation and killing thousands of civilians in all the surrounding countries. These countries are the homes of Mr. Elmasry's family and community, and those of other Canadian and American muslims but hey they're just muslims right?
Though I do not find what Mr. Elmasry said to be a useful way to engage with this subject, I understand his rage and frustration and that of all Muslims who are incessantly casually labeled terrorists, fascists, barbarians, primitives and a variety of terms I cannot use here. His kin and friends and community are constantly targeted racially in the west while the racist Zionists continue to lay siege to a million and a half innocents in the world's largest open air prison, violate their promises to the UN, murder men women and children, attack their neighbors, and do so with a pat on the back and a wink, wink from countries like the USA and Canada, who's citizens then get upset when Mr.Elmasry speaks about some act which offends them.
Aww poo poo! Are you poor people offended?
The hypocrisy and narrow viewpoint is stunning in its ignorance.
at 03:55 on June 4th, 2008
Moon, all I did is post the story, not authour it.
at 19:07 on June 4th, 2008
Barry, Your over simplified diatribe opened the "story" and set the stage. You claim this is your opinion Barry. If the shoe fits wear it. Do you think it made a huge positive difference for fostering a respectful dialogue that all Canadians must engage in if we are to get along and learn to understand and accept our differences here in Canada? Explain how it might have moved this complex situation forward please. And what is the alternative to opening an honest conversation with Muslim Canadians which must, to be effective, begin with an acknowledgment of their plight and that of their families and community here and in the Middle East? Just round 'em up and send 'em back? Like it or not "those people" are Canadians too and have the same rights that you do, and Canada's foundation and uniqueness is built on the rigorous maintenance and defense of those rights. We can spew hatred and anger on a regular basis at them and every aspect of their lives but god forbid they say anything other than "Gosh isn't Canada grand, and ain't we lucky to be here? Now we can just forget about our history, our religion, our morality, our culture, our families and friends back home, our ruined cities, our tortured and rendered friends, and our dead babies, and the foreign troops that patrol our streets and drop bombs on us at night from the air!"
Like it or not the people you so vehemently suggest we kill as terrorists, such as those in your story, "Perhaps a large scale House to House sweep is in order to KILL these Rat Bastards on Sight, No Mercy, No Jail, No Trial!" -your words, in their countries are what many Canadian Muslims see as freedom fighters trying to liberate their homelands from the hands of the devil himself, the same way you would if the USA invaded Canada. Oh and so what if our goody-two-shoes NATO troops are not sure who they are killing in the little native door to door assassination spree, just open and if they look like a Taliban shoot 'em, right in front of their families! We may get a few innocent Muslims but what the hell, eh?
I don't have to agree with Mr. Elmasy's methods to understand and empathize with him and other Muslims here and in the Middle East. I do not have to support his frustrated, frightened, foolish rantings any more than I do yours, but I know I/we must be prepared to listen and hear what these Canadians have to say and try to fathom why he said those things, and acknowledge the challenges his community faces as legitimate Canadian citizens beset from all sides by bigots and racists.
at 18:44 on June 4th, 2008
Barry,
Ah, so you finally put a link up! Thank you. Maybe include it in the original story next time.
at 11:51 on June 3rd, 2008
Barry Artiste, I like this story. It's good stuff.
I'm so tired of having Muslims who hate us move in regardless, and then use our freedoms to spew venom, demand that "their" culture--including "honor" killings of young girls be given differing status--and in general, demand that they take over existing cultures while benefiting from what those cultures have achieved.
at 12:30 on June 3rd, 2008
When was the last time you actually talked to a Muslim? Probably never. If you want to actually know what Muslims think go into the community and ask, both you and Barry. Bottom line is neither of you have done so, or ever will. You just stand back and throw accusations at Muslims without one iota of hands on information.
I live in a community that has a large Persian/Iranian population and they are a vital part of where I live. They work hard, run their own businesses, participate within the rules and laws and are fine citizens. I enjoy their company and they mine.
The statements above are just plain racist.
at 12:44 on June 3rd, 2008
Really? I've never talked to a Muslim? Wrong. We have a very diverse community.
The comment isn't racist at all. Take a look at what I *really* said--I very clearly described those who are problems.
Moonwolf, you're quick to pull the "racist" trigger--but you have no hesitation about spewing insults about all Americans, the U.S. as a whole, etc. and those who differ with you politically, our military, as well as individual insults here on Now Public. If you repeatedly lump huge groups of people together to insult them, can you really be so quick to condemn anyone else? If you're ready to insult individuals or groups, have you not defined, very clearly, the boundaries of the dialogue in which you prefer to remain? I think so. You've commented supporting some very vile attacks --and made your own-- on Americans and this country as a whole, remember.
Thanks for commenting though. Gave me a chance to point out that assumptions can be wrong, and that "even" here in OK, we have diverse communities. You'd be amazed. You'd be amazed at the beautiful women here of many races and religions, including those shopping in WalMart with headscarves and "full coverage" dress of varying types. One Muslim family loves to come to pow wows.
at 12:47 on June 3rd, 2008
p.s. One of our most highly-rated medical specialists is Muslim, as far as I know. One of my thyroid specialists: a female Hindu physician.
Care to climb down off the assumption hobbyhorse? ;}
at 12:58 on June 3rd, 2008
Your "Good Stuff" says it all.
at 12:54 on June 3rd, 2008
Yes, "those who are problems", read all Muslims.
Nice try on trying to bridge to my compalint about the imperialism/militarism of the USA but it won't wash. Two completely different issues and flawed logic on your part. I have never claimed hatred for American people as a group as anyone who reads my stream can see, quite the opposite.
So here's a challenge. Write a story, or post a story that says something, anything positive about the Muslims Community where you live.
The fact that you would give this bare naked racism a Good Stuff is indicative of where you stand. If this is "Good Stuff" then Now Public is in big trouble.
at 13:07 on June 3rd, 2008
Nope. It's Good Stuff because it's an important, relevant issue. Controversy over Muslims who espouse jihad and hate are very real. The McClean's issue is very real.
This piece points something out: it seems to be OK for this Muslim leader to say, for example, that American women deserve to be raped. But it's not OK for someone to say that's wrong.
You may not like Barry's style of presentation. You may not like the topic. You may not like the fact that free speech for those who don't espouse, for example, rape as "deserved" is equally as important as support for those who spew stuff from the other side.
But the issue is relevant. Bringing it to the table is relevant. This is a huge issue everywhere. And one reason that it's become such a huge issue: the minute someone disagrees with the stuff the Muslim leader spewed, or Dr. Wright's "God Damn America", someone hauls out the race card.
Wrong is wrong, regardless of race. Playing the race card is a way to shut down dialogue, if people allow themselves to be shut down. I think that the race card has become a new form of bullying. "I don't want you to speak, I don't want to hear your opinions, so I'll call you racist."
Luckily, that's working less and less these days.
Now, what do you think is right about someone who says that American women deserve to be raped?
I'm sticking with my GS flag, but not with a conversation that will, based on the past, go nowhere. Please note that no one has yet called you a name like "racist."
at 13:26 on June 3rd, 2008
This is an important issue but not for the reasons you state, and bringing it to the table like this does nothing to invite an open clear dialogue about the challenges confronting human groups as they mix in a more and more integrated world.
You want a pertinent discussion then be responsible for your rhetoric and bias.
If indeed he said what you so constantly refer to, here is how I would translate the sound bite knowing something of his beliefs rather than your completely out of context accusation and dismissal. Starting with the premise that his religion and culture are under constant rhetorical assault by everyone from George Bush on down, and that we can and do say anything we want about what should be done to 'dune-coons' without any care or concern, maybe he is a little pissed. So he decides to throw a little of the b**lsh*t back in our faces. Sounds a lot like the way we do things doesn't it? So he tries to point out, and because he is angry he isn't being diplomatic about it, that in his culture and religion, women who dress in "slutware" as Barry would call it are inviting sexual assault, and thus would deserve to be raped? How many times have our pundits given their opinions about what Muslims deserve for the differences in their culture and beliefs?
You can call me a racist all you want but the evidence in my life is I am colour blind and look at people through the lens of what they do, not their colour or religion.
at 13:27 on June 3rd, 2008
Errr...no one called you a racist. You've been calling other people "racist."
If you wish to espouse and defend someone calling for the rape of women, you have the right to do so. You do, you know, live in a free country.
at 15:23 on June 4th, 2008
PEP, of course not because I'm not, but it is clear that there are those here that are.
You asked me a question: "Now, what do you think is right about someone who says that American women deserve to be raped?"
I made the cardinal error of trying to bring some context and gave one possible answer to your question. You have not replied, and any reply will be very revealing.
After all, you live in a culture where the President openly espouses attacking a whole mixed Muslim/Christian/Jewish population of 80 million men women and children and killing them at random after attacking its neighbor and killing over a million Muslims for what reasons again? Weapons of Mass destruction?
God forbid one angry, terrified, frustrated Muslim says the way it is for them with American women parading around lasciviously in their birthday suits!
at 19:30 on June 3rd, 2008
So you think muslims are a race?
at 19:35 on June 3rd, 2008
Yeah, you know those Arabs and those Persians are all the same. Right? Oh, wait, they're not. Oops.
at 15:22 on June 4th, 2008
René, I simply do not have a word that describes the rabid anti-Muslim bias as effectively, but the closest I can come to how it lands for me is racism. The Muslims in the Middle East are Arabs or Persians so there are nominally two" races", but I stand by my belief that many white westerners are racially motivated against these two brown skinned groups just as they are against their own black or aboriginal citizenry, and the religion is just a red herring, or an added bonus giving racists better tools to attack these groups.
at 19:10 on June 4th, 2008
I dunno most Muslims I have met when overseas with the military were courteous and friendly. As I said before, and will again, I am against anyone who kills men, women and children for an ideology, in case you have been living under your porch in Vangroovy Moon, the Middle East is full of countrymen killing countrymen, and guarantee you if we all left, it will continue, Ask your Persian friends why they left, and I am certain they will tell you the same thing. As I have always said, when in Rome.................
As for Muslims having babies galore, one only has to remember the the last 50 years, Irish and Italians were accused of the same thing. I have 3 brothers and 4 sisters. My family are Catholic, my Mom's sibling were 5 brothers and 6 sisters and Dad had 5 brothers and 4 sisters, yeah the Irish Catholics and Italians pretty much lived in the same neighbourhood as society thought them a tad strange for having such a large brood. Did it bother my folks or me, when at school, there were a few taunts about it. But I certainly didn't let it bother me.
I seem to recall a National Geographic mag from the 40's talking about Irish and Italian families after the depression with large families living in New York Ghettos, they were dirt poor, and people said, Hey Micky, don't have em, if you cant feed em all. And if you can feed em all, stop having them, a war is on and you're eating all our food, (during rationing and victory gardens) Guess what? We let it roll of our backs, according to my Grandma when she regaled me with her "In my day, we had to walk 500 miles to school and live in a lake"
So I am sure Muslims will take this Macleans with a grain of salt, it is only the pious religious leaders who get their lacey diapers in a twist, and take full advantage of our PC society. Do you see any Muslim outcry, rioting in the streets of Canada? Are Canadians firebombing mosques and firing guns in every direction? Hell No, this is Canada, not the Middle east, so my Friend, and I consider you a friend here on Now Public "Get Over It", Step off your Soapbox statements of "Some of me bestest pals is Muslim" and don't fret over it Skeeter, most of us wouldn't know a Muslim in Canada from any other person walking the street. And that is how it should be. As for calling me a Racist, I am sure you do not believe that, it must be Grandma's Vicks Vapour Rub fumes a talkin. So yew is fergivin. Jus yew don't be callin every one races, less yew see em waring them thar pointy hats N robes o white, carrin a cruceefix,an a zippo, drivin round yer backyerd. An even then, they jus mite be the pope lookin fer a ceegar.
at 18:24 on June 3rd, 2008
well, I guess according to moonwolf, we should all just lay down and let the muslims run all over us. 'dune-coon'? whose being racist now? never heard that one before. C'mon, moonwolf, you are showing your intolerance. and don't pretend you are justified, you are flamin' not.
And it looks like the muslims don't like to see us realize than they are running all over us, or for anyone to try to wake us up to that fact. There is a lot to that story they are objecting to, Barry. and what is happening is terrifying. I don't look forward to being forced to wear a head-to-foot black bag in the heat of summer and the Gulf Coast. I feel very sorry for the poor women of Arabia who are forced to wear a black bag every time they go out into the heat of that desert.
The only reason those clerics say that about women who don't wear head-to-foot bags is to terrify women and force them to concede and to justify the thugs they send out to rape young girls and women. Isn't that terrorism? They keep their women practically imprisoned and terrorized, forcing them to have many babies, and have more wives to do that too.
Seems to me, the only hate is on the muslims' side, they say it over and over. They hate us and yet they want to live in our country. I guess they plan to take it over. What was that WWII term? 'Fifth Column.' Oh, America, please don't wake up till we got control of your country and the rest of the world. And believe it or not, moonie, you live in it too, the culture, that is. So stop trying to bully everyone into your way of non-thinking,
at 15:21 on June 4th, 2008
René, if you never heard the term "dune-coon" before then you are terribly cut off from your own troops. Hajis is another one, and there are far worse.
Show me one instance that these much feared Muslims are "running all over us." LOL! It is us running all over them! Your country has enough nukes to obliterate any country that directly attacks you! A few terrorists attack two buildings in New York and your government lays waste to two entire countries killing over a million innocent people. Let's try and stay with the facts OK?
Your government and mine claim to run free countries and as such have given citizenship to the Muslims who live here. Go figure!
"They" have no desire to "run all over us" that is just paranoia that has been institutionalized by your administration to foment hatred and demonize a whole religious group such that you swallow the bullshit and "be onside" giving them permission to conquer other nations and groups, and torture and kill. Hell the Bush Administration convinced you to give up your constitution, your civil protections, and your all your hard won rights and you fell for that too!
"They" do not have the numbers and ability to take over your country even if they wanted too, and the propaganda you bought into is that they want to. "They" don't! "They" want to go to work, get married, buy a house, have kids and feed and raise them, take vacations, garden, vote and go to church just like you! "They" want to respect others and be respected themselves. 99.9% of "them" want nothing more than an opportunity and some peace and quiet and to feel safe in a blatantly hostile place, amongst bigots who have painted "them" all with the same brush as the tiny group of lazies or smaller group of crazies.
There are some crazies that want to hurt us that's true. There have always been some crazies that want to hurt us. Our prisons are filled with good 'ol Christian white boys that wanted to hurt us. Some of the crazies who want to hurt us occupy the highest offices of your country and mine.
Ask Muslim women which moral system they prefer to live in and how they want to dress and most will say their own system and their own dress code.
What's the US dress code for women, two bandaids and a G-string? Oh, sorry, forget about the bandaids!
Do you actually think self-respecting Muslim women if they could would choose to behave like what we see on almost all the pages of all your teen magazines?
Your ignorance of what constitutes Muslim culture and beliefs is a reflection of the propaganda you have been relentlessly fed and your own lack of honest desire to find out for yourself.
Prove to me the only hate is on the Muslims side. Do it with facts like body counts and trillions of dollars of infrastructure destruction, acres of land poisoned beyond recovery with Depleted Uranium, the number of prisoners held, rendered and tortured, the houses and communities flattened, the sites of historical significance turned to rubble, the national treasures looted, the resources stolen, the continuing threats to other sovereign nations, the payoffs to terrorist organizations working to undermine other sovereign nations.
All you have is talk based on assumptions that are glaringly inaccurate. The numbers show a very different story. The USA has not a moral leg to stand on.
As to me being a bully, I am just talking and we're not even in the same country. I have threatened no one. To be a bully one must threaten another, attempt to intimidate another, something that is impossible for me to do to anyone on NP from here, even if I was so inclined. If you do not agree with me that's OK with me but I will keep trying to break through. I will not give up my morality and integrity because you use simplistic, inaccurate one word admonitions to try and make be shut up. Do with that what you like. Bullying is an intrinsic part of American culture and the proof that the USA is the world's biggest bully is undeniable to everyone on the planet except many Americans. The treatment of Muslims in the USA and here in Canada is often and very obviously bullying and those that engage in it are bullies.
"Seems to me, the only hate is on the muslims' side, they say it over
and over. They hate us and yet they want to live in our country. I
guess they plan to take it over."
Sounds like the justifications used by bullies. Better arm yourself against the legions of crazed Muslims about to attack your house!
at 19:34 on June 3rd, 2008
Barry Artiste, I like this story. It's good stuff.
And since moonwolf threw down the gauntlet with PEP and asked her or any of us "racists" (basically anyone who doesn't agree with moonwolf) to relate a story we've had with Muslims; I will give two current ones.
Firstly, during my freshman year of college I became friends with an engineering student. We had kept in contact until last year when we had lunch. The reason I no longer correspond with him is because I left our lunch a little disturbed by what he said.
He went into this whole speech about how the Jews are bad, capitalism is horrible, and the American government was responsible for 9/11. The only difference I could think of between the friend I knew back during my freshman year and the stranger I had lunch with last year was that he had gone back home to Dubai. The things he said were shocking.
My other story really isn't my own but rather my father's. A coworker of his, a Muslim woman, recently took a trip with her husband back to Saudi Arabia. According to my father she is a brilliant woman who is very independent. But guess what, the second she got into Saudi Arabia, she was automatically relegated to being a second class citizen.
When she went to order at a restaurant's counter no one would respond to her because women weren't suppose to order food. Her husband would have had to go up to the counter to order the food.
I respect this woman immensely because she has had to deal directly with segregation. And this type of segregation is endemic with many Arab cultures. Women are second class citizens, "freedom" is a bad word, tolerance isn't heard of.
When Barry, PEP, me, or anyone else talks out against Arab culture this is what we're talking about. We don't care what skin color a particular person has.
My last point is that I truly think that moonwolf is a racist. My reason for believing this is because he has routinely dehumanized anyone of color. He plainly makes it clear that, in this case, Muslims cannot be responsible for things they say because of the society they live in. In moonwolf's mind, Muslims have no free will and are defined by the will of their white masters.
I am serious about this moonwolf. I consider you as more than just an acquaintance or some online sparring partner. But when you cannot find any fault in someone who calls for the killing of every Jew over 18 years of age just because of the color of his skin, you have crossed a line.
at 04:58 on June 4th, 2008
Thanks for this Big T, though Skeeter (Moon) may have to read it a second or third time for it to sink in.
at 15:20 on June 4th, 2008
Big T,
These are your words, "He went into this whole speech about how the Jews are bad, capitalism is horrible, and the American government was responsible for 9/11. The only difference I could think of between the friend I knew back during
my freshman year and the stranger I had lunch with last year was that
he had gone back home to Dubai. The things he said were shocking."
Maybe what he said was true, at least to him, and by the way billions of other people, and only shocking to you? Hear any echoes in what he said about Jews in how many Americans and many posters right here on this thread are speaking of Muslims? Hmmmm? Maybe someone saying things you don't agree with would be a good reason to listen and think, well maybe he has good reason rather than dismissing him and running away. Maybe your use of the word "friend" was incorrect. If he was your friend you would not have ended this friendship because he has radical views. To me friends are friends regardless of what they say. He had not attacked anyone or killed anyone. He was sharing his views with someone he considered open minded enough to at least listen and then discuss these new ideas as they were important to him. Maybe if you'd hung in there you could have changed his mind.
Then you tell me your second story which at best is a word of mouth biased account, heresay now three or four times removed from what actually happened. But, for the sake of discussion, staying with the premise you make let's assume that it is accurate: Was the woman a US citizen? Knowing how it would be in Saudi Arabia, and it is no secret, especially to those married to Saudis, how it is in that country, why would she go there? If she was such a cool, independent, brilliant woman why did she marry a Saudi, go there, and then stay there? Could she not have made other choices? Does she not bear responsibility for her choices?
I don't agree with some of their beliefs and laws either, and this is the cogent point that all of you who believe you have the right to interfere with and dictate to other cultures and countries continue to miss; its none of my business or your business what other adults in other cultures do within their own countries so butt the hell out!!
If you disagree with them say so and do what you can to communicate for change but you have no right to tell that woman or anyone else how to live. You and your country are not superior in any way.
If I was Palestinian fighting a shooting war with the Jews and they were occupying my country and had been for sixty years, illegally, against their solemn promises and commitments to my people as signatories in good faith to the Balfour Declaration and in compliance with promises made to the UN which formed Israel, I would absolutely make it OK to kill anyone over eighteen. That is the most egalitarian rule of war in the area as far as I can tell. Your troops kill anyone male in a Iraqi killzone who may be armed regardless of age and your air raids kill every living person regardless of age or sex, or whether they are war fighters or not indiscriminately!! So do the Israelis all the time.
What do you not understand about this??
at 04:53 on June 4th, 2008
Thanks everyone for your comments, and differing viewpoints. Though the article points out Muslims, it should have read more zealots who subscribe to the letter of Islam.
Islam in itself is as close to our Bible, and just as ruthless, yet for Western Civilization, we have evolved as a people and certainly do not subscribe to the letter of the Bible, for if we did, we would be a bunch of Suicide Bombing Catholics as well. All who believe in Islam are Muslims, but not all Muslims, like Catholics of Jews subscribe to the letter of the Book.
Catholics were told not to use Birth Control by the Pope, we disregarded that, but still considered ourselves Catholic. I am certain the Macleans article is one portraying the downside of religious cultures of which Muslims are a part of, just as we are part of a Judeo Christian culture.
Religions are all ideologies, not a race or culture, so using the human rights commission to accuse someone of racism on an ideology, certainly shows as a Politically Correct society how "Stupid" the BC Human Rights Commission is lying on their pale white LEFTY belly for any cause.
Communism, Socialism, Veganism are all ideologies, so is Monster Truck Racing, all have their views on what is their Ideal recreation or belief, if I wrote a piece on Communist Socialist Vegan Monster Truck followers, would Vegan Monster Truck Followers take me to Human Rights court? I doubt it, and if they did, do you seriously think and court would take the case, of course not. Granted this is a humourous vein, but Ideologies are just that, an idea that a group of people who form an opinion of what they like and dislike about their group or community. It is never a racism, it is not even a culture. You cannot be born a Monster Truck Driving Vegan, no more can you be born a Muslim or Jew. You have to be indoctrinated into the ideology. If someone said Roman Catholics are evil, I would not disagree, some are I am sure, and some are not. Same as Islamists! There was a time when it was said Communism was evil, to some it was, to others it was not. It turned for the worse when Stalin made you a communist whether you liked it or not, if not, you were dead!
The same with religion, it's an ideology, sometimes hurtful to others, sometimes benevolent, sometimes fatal. It is only the person whose cultural beliefs (Ideology) who take their religious (Ideology) leanings to the extreme and cause to death of others. That, I take seriously ,as a dark age religion that needs to conform to todays society and norms. Western Society fought long and hard for rights, rights which are against not only Islam, but Christian society as well.
It is just that Christian Society do not try and kill a Gay person, or a woman for driving a car or having individual thought. Islam has a hierarchy believe it or not, I read a Islamic journal,(Yes, I do read books there, Skeeter) where as Islamists state that Somalia Islamists are not very intelligent. In fact not as intelligent as Middle Eastern Islamists. Now certainly if Maclean wrote on this story, there would be an uproar of racism. Wrong!, they state Somalians who are Islamists are not very intelligent, perhaps just in the understanding and culture of Islam. Though when I read further, I could see they were saying people who are African Muslim Islamists in Britain are not as successful as their middle eastern brothers and sisters in the British School system and their African Brothers and Sisters need a lot of extra special education. The British Muslim Council go on to say post secondary school is something that the African Muslims will find hard to achieve due to their inability to do well in school. Boy, imagine say that about the Dutch, American or the Chinese, I betcha there would be hell to pay.
So there are degrees of racism even within Islam, there are also differing views of ideology, which is okay, as long as you do not try and force your ideology on others to the point of wiping them out as a race of people.
How many stories do we read about Islamic countries blowing up their own people in marketplaces over ideology. It is only guilt by association that the media paint all Muslims and tie them to radical Islam.
Just as the IRA in Ireland were blowing up people, not all Catholics were bomb making nutjobs
To me, Radical Islam which preaches conformity or death is an ideology that has no place in todays society, and that I am sure my friend Moon can agree with.
at 15:16 on June 4th, 2008
Barry,
We were good for the first few paragraphs as you were taking responsibility for not being clear and thoughtful before writing what you did and thinking about the possible effects it would have on ordinary Muslims, and on a very fractious, divisive and potentially dangerous situation, but one that if cooler heads prevail and real dialog ensues might just be incredibly great for Canada and all Canadians of every race and creed.
The whole part about monster truck racing was, I hope, an attempt to bring humour to a conversation most of the people painted by your original brush do not find even remotely funny.
"The same with religion, it's an ideology, sometimes hurtful to
others, sometimes benevolent, sometimes fatal. It is only the person
whose cultural beliefs (Ideology) who take their religious (Ideology)
leanings to the extreme and cause to death of others. That, I take
seriously ,as a dark age religion that needs to conform to todays
society and norms. Western Society fought long and hard for rights,
rights which are against not only Islam, but Christian society as well.It is just that Christian Society do not try and kill a Gay person, or a woman for driving a car or having individual thought."
Barry.....look at history....this is just not true. Gay people are beaten to death, lynched, dragged behind cars until they die, crucified, and tortured in all manner of heinous ways in the USA and Canada regularily. It's called gay bashing and it is becoming more common not less.
Women in this "egalitarian" Christian culture are still fighting tooth and nail for equality. It ain't a done deal. Women are beaten to death and killed in all manner of forms by their Christian husbands all the time. Abuse of wives is epidemic!
But that being said the fact remains: It's none of your or my or our governments' business to attack and kill people half way around the world for such behaviors in their country, and those Muslims that live here in Canada would end up in prison if they tried to do that and that is the REASON why many Muslims left their countries and came here, and when they get here what do they find?
Real change in those countries will take time and comes from a long involved process similar to the one we have gone through. There is no way to impose it in a hurry-up way. We cannot make other cultures and people "good" by murdering and destroying. We cannot demand moral changes of others when we behave like beasts ourselves. The only effective method is to lead by example and help as much as possible, but doing what the US and Canada are doing in the Middle East, in their countries, to their families, and to Muslims right here simply entrenches those old beliefs and political structures both here and over there. It's do as I say not as I do! Can't you see that?
at 05:10 on June 4th, 2008
Sir Charles James Napier (August 10, 1782 – August 29, 1853) was a British
general and Commander-in-Chief in India. The city of Napier, New Zealand, is
named after him. He is famous for conquering Sindh province now in present-day
Pakistan (Muslim).
A quote for which Napier is famous involves a delegation of Hindu locals
approaching him and complaining about prohibition of Sati, often referred to at
the time as suttee, by British authorities. This was the custom of burning
widows alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands. The exact wording of his
response varies somewhat in different reports, but the following version
captures its essence:
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a
custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we
hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a
gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."