The Burqua Experiment

to smma59 I do not wish to disrespect our many fine muslim citizens.  I specified the women of Afghanistan because of the restrictive laws they are fighting, not because of Islam.  I am trying to understand Muslim women and their choices, although the information is very poor and usually rife with passionate statements of anger and insistence, which are hard to hear.  I do not walk about in G strings, neither do I feel a need to dress modestly.  I am, in fact, a very flamboyant woman and while I am insistent on a woman's right to wear the Hajib or other covering as she sees fit, I also campaign for women's rights to go topless as the men are allowed to do.  I am not of the Judeo Christian line of religions and I do not believe that nudity necessarily leads to immorality, nor that religion prevents it.  In fact I believe public nudity can help people learn the self control that leads to stronger morality.

But thats not this conversation, so if you wish to take it up, lets take it to our message boxes.  This conversation is about a woman's right to wear her religious dress unbothered and what happens when a woman wears these extreme garments.

Of course, if I was a muslim woman who wore the burqua religiously I would not have been alone and the presence of a strong male companion or even group of similarily clad women would have lent me sufficient authority to be left alone.  Women who wear full face covering in Islam do not travel alone.

I did learn, most interestingly, that we do have citizens who wear a full veil in the Saudi style, and they are cloistered for the most part, doing some shopping and walking at a particular mall in town before opening where they are able to avoid pointing, staring, and other rude behaviour.  I'd like to interview them, although I do not know how well I would be recieved.

And yet nuns used to walk about freely wearing full habits and if anything were treated with courtesy and respect. Sad that too many people are so judgmental of others based on appearance.

smma59 I am not making fun, although I know people look scrupulously for that, having been disrespected, and this may make them see it where it is not.

I have been learning what is Hijab and the various kinds, it's been a fascinating study.  However I'd like to point out that the muslim community is very insular and I have no idea what "the proper channels" may be.  I cannot approach muslim men.  In the past I have found the interactions very unpleasant and demeaning, and not at all useful to me.  I would need to approach muslim women and I have not encountered any in a social forum as yet.  I am certainly open to it, but like talking race with an oppressed minority, it requires a high degree of diplomacy and wordsmithing.  I may not have sufficient skill to accomplish this.

Just know this, smma59, I'm a white western woman raising the issue in support of a woman's right to wear a veil.  Don't discount the value of that.  Islam needs more non-muslim friends if they want to win the battle for their religious rights.  They are still a minority.

In the west muslims do indeed have a fight for their rights.  Women in France have been told they may not wear veils or even head scarves in the schools, leading to mothers unable to go into the schools their children attend.  Muslims on western streets in North America face at the minimum stares and scowls, and at the worst may endure outspoken criticism in their faces from public who may drive past making rude comments or other harassment.  

Where you live there is a long standing tradition of Islamic practices and other cultures with veiled women.  Here in the West, Islam is commonly seen by ignorant people as tied to terrorism and negative behaviour.  Police and customs agents regularily single out darker people and people in Islamic dress for extra attention, searches, questions and detainment.  The fact that I could not stand on a bridge wearing this garment while taking photographs of the scenery without someone calling police should point out to you that there is a struggle for Moslem rights in my city.

A muslim woman treated as I was would have been very much disturbed, possibly traumatized, and her demand for a female officer and seclusion before lifting her veil may not have been treated with respect.  She would not have been able to continue her journey without compromising her privacy.  I was not able to continue my errands without being accosted.  Perhaps today I shall have better success at taking a walk to pick up my bicycle while wearing the burqua again.

The French have that right to oppose religious clothing in secular schools. Teachers in schools in the US may not wear crucifixes. What is the difference?

Western women must wear headscarves just to walk down the street in Iran.

If you don't like France's way of doing things, get out. Same for Canada if you are not a citizen. You have no "right" to live in France. You are there at the good will of the French people until you are a citizen. Then and only then do you have the right to be in France.

That covering, the Burkha, is beyond what the Koran dictates. It is the ultimate sign of a man's need to oppress women. It is the embodiment of fear of women.

What do you think would happen if I got out some Uncle Sam gear on wore just an American flag lapel pin while walking around a Muslim country?

We are actually at war with a fundamentalist version of Islam not popular even with Muslims, and, (Surprise, surprise!) when you dress like them, people  have the reasonable expectation that there is the possibility that you may be more than just sympathetic to the cause-

Just as if I wore a cowboy hat or American flag lapel pin in Tehran.

We have christian sects around here where women wear a head covering.  Everything from the Orthodox nuns with their faces peering out of black box-like headgear to the women who cover the bun on back of their head with a small starched cloth folded to a square.  Some simply don a scarf that looks perfectly ordinary.  Women often go about simply wearing a scarf because their hair is messy, as men wear hats.  It is accepted.  But when a Muslim goes about wearing cultural gear he is somehow less a citizen for it?  I could go about this city wearing traditional Dutch dress with the funny starched lace cap and I would not be accosted by police or accused of failing to embrace my country.  Many muslims are not only citizens, but born and raised here.  The women choose to wear the Hijab.  Maybe some feel pressured, and in some countries they may not have a choice due to oppression, but the women in Canada are choosing.  

Many of the people fighting in France are legal citizens.  Those who immigrated will have done so for the same reasons as the ancestors of white north americans emigrated from Europe.  They brought their cultures and tradtions and created a vibrant and beautiful country.  It makes no sense to close the doors now.  I've known Ukranian communities where folks had accents and some could not even speak English.  I've known Italian families who likewise had elders speaking only Italian.  They were not disrespected or considered less welcome.  The old women wore long full skirts in dark colors and scarves as befitted their old fashioned notions of propriety and were not considered security threats!

Whether the various garments are in fact required by God is for the persons in that faith to debate.  They are not up for political debate, especially by non-believers like you and I.

I think our culture had better step up and start working with these folks because they're here, they're growing, and their rights are no less valid than ours.  If we made an effort to bring female police and guards into the equation and arranged just a little privacy at security checkpoints then the issue of identification and security would be a non-issue.  These women are perfectly willing to show themselves fully around other women.  We have plenty of women in our security and police forces.  A little sensitivity would take us all a long way.

Good for you for doing this - really admirable, and thank you for the interesting perspective on what wearing a burqua is like.

"Whether the various garments are in fact required by God is for the persons in that faith to debate.  They are not up for political debate, especially by non-believers like you and I."

Just plain wrong. Do what you want in your country. When in my country, the burkha is a sign of repression and oppression and sympathy for a way of life that simply does not belong here in a democracy.

Nuns wear habits but they never told me that the Law of the Vatican is to be adopted by the US the way fundamentalists want the Law of Sharia here.

The US teachers who cannot wear crucifixes in American public schools are US citizens. That is the law.

No, I don't want women in the US to wear burkhas. Not ok. I will accept it when I walk around Medina or Mecca with a crucifix, mezuzah, or US flag lapel pin.

Roy, you may think that modest dress is a sign of oppression but many of the women who choose it, whether Amish, LDS, fundamentalist Baptist, Catholic or Jew, will tell you they choose to dress modestly.  Even women who are not dressing for religious reasons may choose modest dress.  What is deemed modest varies from family to family as well as culture to culture AND one religion to another.  I was raised by people who promoted nudity as naturalism.  I feel that putting the onus on me as a woman to control men's impulses is ennabling weakness in men.  I think men should learn to control their impulses and desires regardless of the visual temptations.  That, however, doesn't make me, or you, right.  Rather, this world is an experiment of many approaches and many ideas to try and find what works.  When you let your fear and ignorance become bigotry and you try to restrict the experiments and ideas of others, you demean us all.  You restrict us all, even though you claim to be promoting freedoms.   Religious garments also are a way of proudly showing one's membership in the culture, just as a uniform or costume for a club or organization or job is a way of proudly showing membership.  Does a boy scout feel oppressed in his scouting uniform?  Does the soldier not take pride in his dress uniform?  So too do Muslim women speak of their scarves.  Your country was not always yours.  It was built of people of many cultures and faiths and traditions and you do not own the fashion or the faith of your country, Roy.  America was built by immigrants and they blended their varied and sometimes dramatic cultures, including Islam, Asia, Europe and African, Hispanic and American Indian, to create the land that you live in.  We in Canada recognize this, but we too have ignorant people brewing bigotry from fear.  They fear that they will be oppressed so they oppress others, promoting the very thing that frightens them.  Acceptance is greater strength than avoidance.

The burkha is in a class by itself. Nothing I have seen nuns wear or the Hindu women wear comes even close.

The women of Iran wearing a headscarf is fine with me, and so are all the other ways to adorn yourself as a woman, but the burkha is the denial of personality of the woman. You don't see any part of the face. Why not?

When you combine that with a burkha culture of no education for women, stoning for adultery, beatings for discipline by her husband, I do not find that acceptable.

Yes, all the societies of the world have treated women badly in very similar ways, but I don't have to approve of the burkha because women a thousand years ago in Europe couldn't read or write. The nuns could, however.

I object to the burkah. If you wear it in your country, it is your business, but in my country it becomes our business here.

I don't know if I think it should be illegal or not, but it does not belong here in the US. The attitude behind it undermines everything we are about.

Yes, be modest and cover your head. Cover your face and I object, not because your face is covered, but because of what it represents.

Actually, Cypresso, there were issues with nudity among Greco-Roman pagans.

A Roman man would not have sex with his woman nude. She kept her bra on and he only touched his wife his one of his hands, and only had sex in a dark room after dark. Source: A History of Private Life by Aries and Duby.

Anarkissed

You are indeed kissed by anarchy in a good way ...I totally applaud you ... My inner dog was barking and wagging his tail at this article ... I desperately felt the infectious need to wear a Burkha too to test authority and police reactions ...

I think it is a fundamental right for people to wear what they wish barring the obvious safety concerns with machines or hygiene when operating with or on others in medical matters..

You are right woman should have a choice . My reservations though are what is "choice" or "freedom" in countries that may use any form of religion for the overt social control of woman and indeed others like a form of social "terror" ...

Rights are so important and so is freedom to pursue them,  and at base I would support a woman or man's right to wear as she or he will ... Yes  men TOO should have right to wear Burkha's too !  - Hell that WOULD cause police suspicion though ..... (yours smilingly)  

Kind Regards  ADR

If the burqa were something that women really "choose to wear" as opposed to something they have been verbally and physically bullied into wearing there would be more understanding. If you had ever been subjected to abuse from within your family (and I have direct experience with this) you would understand that even as you become an adult the effects of the long term abuse and brainwashing have not gone away. Perhaps you DO only feel safe wearing it now because you've been forced to do it for so long. That makes it very wrong in my eyes. The burqa represses women and keeps them from living normal and productive lives outside the home. It is NOT a religious requirement of Islam. Islamic countries cannot even come to terms rather it's required or not - they change the rules whenever they feel like it. The burqa hides the wearer's identity and I think rather it's a burqa or mask or other complete facial covering (unless medically required) that it is wrong and not in the best interest of society or safety for all involved.  

It's interesting to see some European countries calling for bans on these.  There's certainly issues of security when you can't see the person under the fabric.  What fascinates me though, is nobody discusses that.  Hoodlums adopt costumes that make them all alike then bully local children into copying them.  the costumes cover a large part of their bodies and shapes, and can be used to cover even their faces in a pinch. when you go to identify a crook, he looks like everyone around, even innocent kids.  The niqab and burqa are ideal for crooks to hide under.  Yet we only discuss it from a sociopolitical point of view.  Personally I think that moslem women will not be free from opression till they free themselves.  Like any abused person you cannot drag them out of it, only keep a door open and wait for them to choose it.

I think that to show these women respect in spite of their exotic ways will lead them much more quickly to self respect than to further distance them with aggressive bans on their symbolic dress and religious choices.

Burqas bother me.  I live very close to a mosque and often see women in burqas.  It took me a while to put my finger on it, but I think I understand now what the root of it is.  It is the hiding of identity.  The only people who cover their faces in Western society are criminals, masked robbers, etc. I associate a hidden face with criminality or intention of wrongdoing.