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Beheader Vince Li Found Criminally Not Responsible
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by duo | March 7, 2009 at 01:58 am
278 views | 16 Recommendations | 15 comments
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Treatment, not jail, for Manitoba bus beheader; victim's family angry
The Canadian Press
– March 5, 2009
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090305/national/crime_bus_beheading
WINNIPEG - A man who believed he was following God's orders when he stabbed and beheaded a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus in Manitoba has been found not criminally responsible, devastating the victim's loved ones.
Justice John Scurfield said Vince Li's attack on Tim McLean last summer was "barbaric," but the law makes allowances for those with severe mental illnesses.
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Mary Neal
Assistance to the Incarcerated Mentally Ill
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duo
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Most RecentMost Recommended Comments (15)
at 07:59 on March 7th, 2009
Thanks for this Duo, what many expected.
at 08:54 on March 7th, 2009
Thank you, Barry. Canada could have saved the expense of court and sent this man straight to the hospital. He is obviously sick. I congratulate Justice John Scurfield for coming to the only just and humane decision that could be derived from the circumstances. And I send my condolences to Tim McLean's family.
Mary
at 17:58 on March 7th, 2009
I'm not convinced that this EVIL man is insane, No i would use this term to described his so-called mental illness as "demon possessed" this whole liberal orchestrated appeasement strategy would be really over if we would just executed this wicked bastard for committing that most heinous murder. But as usual the victims of these violent crimes are laid to rest in those deep dark black holes in the ground. and his murderer evil monster is given lots of expensive psychotherapy.
This godless, lawless criminal appeasing society is to blame. don't worry he'll be back after they have cycle analyzed his brains out. and when they'd made lots of money off this demon possessed man he'll be back on the streets for a short time doing what he does best? murdering more innocent people once again. once he's caught a second time he, with the help of some highly educated psychiatric idiot, will generously play that insanity card on another bleeding heart mindless spineless jury.
Capital Punishment for all murders, regardless of their motives or how many demons possess their evil souls,is fair and just. especially to the victims and their families
at 12:41 on March 8th, 2009
I knew that people once believed the mentally ill were demon possessed, but I did not know there were any who believed that this century.
at 14:27 on March 8th, 2009
Of course this guy is insane. Duh. Murdering, decapitating, then eating the eyes and heart of a young man who was sleeping moments before ...
Anybody who wants to argue that this man should be back on the street, albeit medicated, should be willing to kiss him goodnight. Or at least have him hospitalized in your own backyard. I don't want this nut anywhere outside of a maximum security prison medicated or not. That would be where I'd choose to spend the millions of tax dollars it's going to take to keep this guy off the street. Not a hospital - that's where people go to get healed, not medicated and incarcerated indefinitely.
at 18:53 on March 8th, 2009
Hello, Yellow. You are right that this man needs to be committed for life. I think the mentally ill who commit violent crimes should serve at least the minimum sentence that anyone else would for the crime - but in hospitals rather than jails. Doctors should not be able to release them - only the sentencing court, and only after the minimum time for the crime has been served.
I believe the problem with doctors releasing mentally ill offenders is that the patient is stable when released from hospital and jail where they are treated, but many patients stop taking their meds and become unstable soon after leaving. The mentally ill who exit hospitals after being placed there by courts after crimes need followup. They need enforced treatment to ensure they stay on their meds after release and subsistence assistance for those who qualify for financial aid. They need KENDRA'S LAW.
When compared to their experience three years prior to participation in the New York program, Kendra's Law participants experienced 74 percent less homelessness, 77 percent less hospitalizations, 83 percent less arrests, and 87 percent less incarcerations. See more here: http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/1056090
at 19:45 on March 8th, 2009
Hey duo,
Thanks for the response, and the link. That is an excellent idea, and I would applaud something similar in my country. What you, and they, are saying makes a lot sense. I would only add the proviso that cases involving extreme violence, including all murder-related offenses, be excluded from such a program. I've worked with a number of mentally ill individuals and they were a risk only to themselves. If they are involved in crime they need help, not punishment. But if it is a murder, than perhaps the victim's family should be involved in the sentencing and/or release condition. Just a thought.
at 02:13 on March 11th, 2009
Thank you, Yellow. As you may know, I became interested in the plight of the mentally ill in the criminal justice system after the secret arrest and death of my brother who was a lifelong mental patient who died under secret arrest in Memphis Shelby County Jail in 2003. http://wrongfuldeathoflarryneal.com. Since then, I became aware that 1.25 million of American prisoners are mentally ill. As you say, most are non-violent offenders. Some, like my brother, were arrested for simple misdemeanor crimes - vagrancy, disturbing the peace, etc.
Once in the system, it is harder for mental patients to get out than other prisoners because many of them constantly break the prisons' rules - they don't "act right." Therefore they serve longer sentences for the same crimes as compared to other inmates, and they are often imprisoned naked in solitary confinement - extreme punishment for merely being sick.
I understand your concern for the victims' families in awful cases like Vince Li's. But I suggest that those families should vent their wraft on the governmental authorities instead of the helpless mental patient. Most often, acute mental patients like Li have amply shown their need for hospitalization before committing a murder. However, due to restrictions on enforced hospitalization and outpatient treatment, their symptoms are ignored, and they are left free in society to kill. Sometimes, municipalities have actually bought the homeless mentally ill bus tickets to remove them from their cities rather than giving treatment. Read about some more cases like Li's when you have time:
Murder for Christmas: Arizona Schizophrenic Man Bludgeoned Youngsters
http://my.nowpublic.com/health/murder-christmas-az-schizophrenic-man-bludgeoned-youngsters
Schizophrenic Man Murders His Sister Who Was Denied Help for Him
www.nowpublic.com/health/oregon-man-murders-his-sister
Georgia Mental Patient Sets Fire to Her Mother and Watches Her Burn http://digg.com/odd_stuff/Georgia_Woman_Sets_Mother_On_Fire_Watches_Her_Burn
Thanks for your comments and sharing your views! The failure to treat for mental illness is the enemy - not the sick people themselves.
Mary Neal
at 14:26 on March 10th, 2009
ty duo, it pisses me off to no end to hear the mentally ill called demon possessed, what a medieval thought indeed! how insulting, tell me who has the real problem here?? there is no forgiveness or compassion in some people, pray you don't fall on that side of needing one day, ravinwood
at 18:52 on March 10th, 2009
Attila,
I wouldn't rule out anything at this point mate. As someone much wiser than me once said:
"Not only is the universe stranger than we'd imagined, it's stranger than we could imagine."
The idea of demon possession is no medieval construction. It's much much older than that. I would never advocate using it as a way to explain or dismiss somebody with a mental problem. But I wouldn't rule it out as a possible explanation for some self destructive behaviours. What materialists call the 'real world' is a miniscule layer of skin on what is really out there waiting for us to discover. Take it or leave it, doubt or believe it. It makes no difference. It's there.
at 02:20 on March 11th, 2009
Yello Guitar, man has always let his thoughts run to superstition whenever he encountered something unexplained. Mental illness is less a mystery today than it once was, so let us rein in our imaginations, please. Schizophrenia, which is one of the most acute forms of mental illness, has been traced to be caused by cat litter in some cases.
Studies indicate that many schizophrenic persons were exposed to the germ in cat litter as an unborn or very young child, and this germ may have caused their mental health problems. Thousands of parents sware their children were normal in every way until getting immunized, and then the children became Autistic. You might already know that Alzheimer's Disease has been traced to a defective gene.
My brother was perfectly normal until at age 8, he had a bad case of mumps with an extremely high fever. His badly swollen jaws went away in just one hour, but all the infection went to his brain. Read how Mumps causes mental illness in some people, as reported by Alberta Health Services (http://www.chr.ab.ca/bins/content_page.asp?cid=5075-5106-11052-13829):
Most people recover from illness but in rare cases mumps can be serious and there is no treatment. Individuals who become seriously ill may have encephalitis (infection of the brain), meningitis (a swelling of the covering of the brain), arthritis and deafness. One in three men may experience painful, swollen testicles. Although very rare, some of these men may become infertile as a result of the infection.
The brain is a physical ORGAN, like a heart or liver. Defects in it manisfest themselves as mental illness. Sometimes stress can lead to this condition, as in PTSD. But just as often or more so, I believe mental illness has a perfectly explainable physical cause. Mental illness is not caused by demons, but many people demonize and criminalize those who suffer with this condition. It is that unsavory belief that contributes to the stigma attached to mental illness and prevents many people from getting the help they need to avoid preventable tragedies like Mr. Li's illness caused.
Please give this some consideration. Thanks for your comments. They gave me a chance to address this issue of superstitions being applied to a very common, treatable health condition.
Mary
at 03:33 on March 11th, 2009
ty Duo, far too long these afflicted have suffered the injustice of being cast from society, and these ideas only make their lives harder, so mcuh so that others can pass them on the street and believe that they deserve to live that way. living with someone with a mental illness opens the heart and the mind and dispels all those fears, reach out to get to know one of these people and you will find a human being living in that fog.
we need to continue educating ourselves and leave behind the ignorant fears that hurt us all, most definitely the ill. we only widen that chasm that they struggle to cross, and any number of things could happen to one of us that leaves us on the receiving end of this destructive attitude. why does this world need to hang onto stereotyping everyone?
prepare yourselves, people, we have many young people diagnosed as bi-polar and it only increases, have we any idea how closely these two illnesses are? we are all affected.
ty again, Duo, you have left us with some valuable information.
at 04:08 on March 11th, 2009
Thank you for your kind compliment and insightful comments, Attila. You were right to point out that people who never had to deal with mental illness in a loved one or struggled with it themselves may have little to no understanding of what the condition is like, and some have a tendency to forget that the mentally ill are real people like anyone else. They suffer from a common, treatable condition.
Please take a look at a brief, PARTIAL list of some people who had/have mental health issues - something that 1 in 5 Americans are estimated to have. This probably makes mental illness one of the most common health problems in the country, and I am frankly surprised that the stigma prevails. If you are not already a member of our Care2 human rights group, Assistance to the Incarcerated Mentally Ill, I invite you to check us out and consider helping in our efforts. We seek to dispell some of the myths surrounding mental illness by publicizing and openly discussing the condition and some of the associated problems. The link is after my signature above in the article.
Here is my partial list of famous people with mental health issues:
Bipolar Disorder? Schizophrenia? Manic Depression? Alzheimer's? Dementia? PTSD? Post Partum Depression? Autism? See who else has/had mental disorders:
Buzz Aldrin (astronaut) · Adam Ant (musician) · Ludwig van Beethoven (composer) · Napoleon Bonaparte (political leader) · Tim Burton (artist, director) · Lord Byron (poet) · Dick Cavett (television journalist) · Winston Churchill (politician) · Charles Dickens (author) · DMX, Dark Man X (Earl Simmons) (musician, actor) · Robert Downey Jr. (actor) · Richardy Dreyfuss (actor) · Patty Duke (actress) · Ralph Waldo Emerson (author) · Carrie Fisher (Actress, writer) · Larry Flynt (publisher, activist) · Francis Scott Key Fitzgerald (Writer) · Connie Francis (singer) · Stephen Fry (actor, comedian writer) · Peter Gabriel (musician) · Alan Garner (novelist) · Matthew Good (musician) · Philip Graham (publisher, businessman) · Macy Gray (musician, actor) · Graham Greene (English Novelist) · Ivor Gurney (English composer, poet)· Sean LeVert (singer) · Patrick Kennedy (Congressman) · Elvis Presley (singer, actor) · Britney Speers (singer) · Somebody you love
Thank you again for commenting!
Mary
at 17:07 on May 28th, 2009
I think a crucial aspect of this case that people are overlooking is that Li was hospitalized in Thunder Bay after being found walking down the Highway towards Winnipeg nude. He was informed of his illness, but refused treatment. Therefore he was criminally negligent in not taking the proper medication or seeking/ refusing medical attention. Which means he should have been convicted of second degree murder and given a regular sentance without the option to plea NCR, as his "actions" would have been prevented with the use of proper medication or medical assistance. It is absoultuly horrifying that a review board can decide to release Vince Li as soon as months after the murder. He will not be considered a "danger to the public" after some phyc. evaluations and will be relseased into society. STEP UP Canadian Legal system... its evident that covicted people with mental illnesses should be detained for longer, seeing how "rehabilitation" is the basis of sentancing in Canada. If a mentally "normal" convict needs 10- 25 years in prison to be rehabilitated, the criminally insane should serve equal if not more time before being considered "rehabilitated." I suggest you research the Donna Trueman case, she strangled her 4 year old son with a broom before shoving the broom handle through his head. She was released into society after 5 months in an institution. How is that just?
at 20:36 on May 28th, 2009
You are so right about part of what you said. I do not advocate that a mentally ill offender's sentence should be shortened by any doctor being allowed to dismiss the offender from commitment to the mental institution. Mentally ill offenders who do violent crimes should serve at least the minimum sentence for the crime they committed, and then be released only by the sentencing court or the parole board, not a doctor. Doctors have been WRONG too often. However, sick people like Li should be contained and treated in a secure mental hospital, not a jail or prison.
It costs taxpayers no more to confine mentally ill offenders to hospitals for treatment and containment than it does to warehouse them in cruel circumstances in prison and treat them after crimes they cannot understand and/or behavior they cannot control. I wrote about it here:
Enforced Treatment vs. Prison for Acute Mental Patients
http://my.nowpublic.com/health/enforced-treatment-vs-prison-acute-mental-patients-and-updates-mary-neal
Non-violent offenders who are mentally ill should be released from prison into an assisted outpatient treatment program, such as Kendra's Law. Assisted outpatient treatment programs combine subsistence assistance with enforced treatment, and REMOVE THE CHOICE of whether or not psychiatric treament will be accepted. That is the problem with the mental health system today - treatment decisions are being made by the mentally unhealthy.
A condition called "anosognosia" is a common problem among acutely mentally ill people. They do not recognize their illness. Then our laws "protect their civil rights" and wait until there is a smoking gun or dripping knife to enforce treatment.
Withholding enforced treatment is also why Sgt. John Russel of the U.S. Army was able to have acute PTSD and kill five of his fellow service members. He went to the stress clinic at Camp Liberty in Baghdad as he was ordered, but when he got there, he argued about treatment and was escorted AWAY from the only help that was available to him. They should have enforced his treatment and saved lives, but that was not done. Now Sgt. Russel is charged with murder for behavior he could not control, also. When will we learn? Cho killed 32 people at Virginia Tech, because when he was18, his parents could not force him to continue his psychiatric care. See information and photographs here:
Kendra's Law Saves Lives and Money
http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/1056090
Enforced care is often required for acute mental illness. The system prohibits enforced hospitalization and treatment in many cases, causing the deaths of mental patients and many victims. The system is crazy.
Thanks for responding. Tell me what you think about enforced treatment and doctors not being allowed to release people committed to hospitals after crimes.
Mary