Hitler and Milgram's Ghosts- Obey; You Will Shock the Human

by Erik Larson | December 19, 2008 at 12:29 pm

1332 views | 61 Recommendations | 11 comments

Dr. Jerry Burger has replicated some aspects of Stanley Milgram's famous experiment and found that people are just as inclined to obey authority, even if it means inflicting pain on others. Milgram had found that 79% of subjects were willing to administer what they thought were 450 volt shocks to participants in a scientific experiment; the real experiment was studying people's obedience to authority. The experiment led to a new ethics code for scientific researchers that involved disclosure to particpants, which has made it impossible to directly replicate Milgram's findings. Burger has done a limited replication which found that 70% of partcipants "had to be stopped" from continuing past the 150 volt mark, which was the point where Milgram had found most particpants that expressed misgivings refused to continue, if they did refuse. Burger's research has replicated Milgram's finding that men and women are equally likely to obey and inflict pain.

Nearly 50 years after one of the most controversial behavioral experiments in history, a social psychologist has found that people are still just as willing to administer what they believe are painful electric shocks to others when urged on by an authority figure.

So, next time you're at some protest that turns violent thanks to police provocateurs, don't expect the men or women at the trigger of the microwave simulated flesh burning weapons to have any mercy- or the soldiers, CIA ops and private contractors torturing innocent detainees at Abu Ghraib- or executing air strikes on Afghan wedding parties- they're just following orders. Possibly all the way to a new Nuremburg. Are we really responsible for our own actions? Or is our "free will" mostly genes, imprinting and socialization?

What about the decades of research that shows IQ scores are governed more by nutrition and neighborhood than genes, culture or education? Are kids subjected to poverty by the Walmartization of America that grow up to be criminals really responsible for their actions? Can the boards and executives of criminal Wall Street corporations (like the White House, Federal Reserve and the Treasury Dept) really be held responsible for the global economic meltdown that they were warned about? They were under pressure from their stockholders and competitors, right?

The playing field needs to be leveled for kids and corporate criminals. If kids are being condemned and held responsible for things they have no control over, then it seems at least logical and fair to hold corporate criminals and treasonous public officials responsible for knowingly risking other people's lives, health and welfare in order to perpetuate inequalities in the economy and political process. If the case can be made that the people behind the Republocrats actually "merit", let it be made; however the 1% "elite" won't talk about how they "merit"; they just use their wealth and power to shut out the real public debate from the private corporation-controlled political debates, policy making and "news" media.

It's obviously simple for the power "elite" to administer economic shocks to "the little people" from an ivory tower- they're insulated from consequences and responsibility for their actions.

Each of our Individual Voices Is More Important Than We've Realized by George Washington - A study found that "even one dissenting voice can give people permission to think for themselves."

The False Logic of Hopelessness (Why the Elephant Should Stand Up to the Mouse) by George Washington

EDIT: Added more links

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Terri Potratz

at 13:48 on December 19th, 2008

Glad you wrote on this story - it's pretty scary to see how things haven't changed much in human behaviour over the past 40+ years.

It's really difficult to see the forest for the trees, when you're in the midst of a situation it's hard to extract yourself and examine it objectively. When taking cues from an authoritative figure, the situation often has to reach a dramatic stage or low-point to snap the participants out of it. And of course, when you rebel against authority, you put your own safety (and that of your loved ones) on the line, and most people would agree to do just about anything to avoid that.

Amy Judd

at 13:58 on December 19th, 2008

Really interesting and informative piece - thanks for this.

Erik Larson

at 14:47 on December 19th, 2008

thanks guys- Terri, your comments reminded me about the George Washington articles i updated the story with; the first one is regarding a study that found even one dissenting person can break the spell created by perception. This new study did find that 70% didn't "have to be stopped", so although they say it isn't "statistically significant", it seems at least 1 out of 4, and maybe 1 out 3 people think about what they're doing when it comes to harming others in deference to (or under) color of authority. And good point about those who buck even bad authority risking consequences; whistleblowers are heros- Sibel Edmonds is a classic example

JustACitizen.com

Sibel Edmonds vs. the Nuclear Terrorists

Barbara McPherson

at 18:32 on December 19th, 2008

Humans are group animals and tend to defer to an Alpha. When you do get a dissenting voice raised tho, it usually brings out the rest of the crowd -- thank goodness. So I'll weigh in to say, yes, you are responsible for your actions if you have time to consider it. On the other hand, what would the military do if the cannon fodder said "NO".

Alida Antonia Cornelius

at 19:05 on December 19th, 2008

Mob mentality usually prevails.

That is what makes them so dangerous.

lefty_liberated

at 19:44 on December 19th, 2008

Jesus was the one with empathy...people have been conditioned away from the experience of their own empathy...because he's the one whose got it and then the followers are all netted into this tunnel vision reality and are lead by these religious leaders who are free to dictate what morality is what ethics are. how dangerous is that to strip people of their belief in their own absolutely transformative power of empathy.

i think this story rips the veil off the inner workings of those in power on much of the planet. And encourages people to realize "we're the ones weve been waiting for." Obama may be or become somewhat corrupt now as he takes a position in the ivory tower, but as Savitri D., of the church of stop shopping noted from a speech by Democracy Now's Amy Goodman:

"Most poignantly she talked about Obama's Blackberry being taken away, how he is soon to be cut off from his only uninterrupted link to us. (He has 10 million people on his email list!) She asked how he would know what we think if he can't see us or talk to us becasue now, instead of going to the barbershop where for years he has gotten thw rod from the street, he has to meet his barber in an undisclosed location. The bubble is descending and who is talking in his ear....
I had a profound sense from her speech of the isolation of power, an almost mechanized propogation of corruption...." Link

However mobilizing the people was at the core of his plan. And so that's just what we've got to do.

The other religious phenomenon of martyrdom also may have a tendancy to strip away the urgent importance and meaning of the slaughter of those figures through out time that have rallied the public to remember and express its empathy for one another (and also those killed in genocides like those going on now, those killed incidentally like the walmart worker, those killed fighting to keep people free or protesting, victims of war). Whats really necessary, I think, is a sense of solidarity among the people that begins to want that anyway and that refuses to be lead in any other direction.

Predatory leaders appeal to people's worst instincts and worst fears about the world. They keep people divided and afraid at any cost. Because that's the only way they can be led. Just as in past socities men and women's roles were closer and over time creating totally distinct animals in the eyes of the public (and thanks to christian influence yes) that we could then be marketed anything and everything that made us close in that image.

Glen Greenwald said bush is "Manichean":

BILL MOYERS: What do you mean when you call President Bush a Manichean warrior? I mean, most people don't know what Manichean is and don't care. What do you mean by it?

GLENN GREENWALD: Well, the idea of being a Manichean comes from this third century BC philosophy that - or religion really that basically understood the world, a never-ending battle between the forces of pure good and the forces of pure evil. And all human events could be understood said adherence to this religion through that prism.

And it was a very simplistic idea that even early Christianity rejected as not appreciating the complexities of how the world actually is and the ambiguities, the moral ambiguities that characterize who most of us are in most situations. George Bush views the world and his followers viewed the world through this lens of pure good versus pure evil.

And it's not me saying that. He said that in virtually all of his speeches. And when you see the world that way what it means is that if you're on the side of pure good, as he asserted that he was and we are, it means that anything that you do, no matter how limitless, no matter how brutal and immoral, is inherently justifiable because it's being enlisted for service of the good.

And by contrast, anything that you do to those on the other side is inherently justified as well because they're pure evil. And from the war in Iraq to the torture camps and secret prisons that we set up all of the things that have done so much damage, I think that's the mentality that lies at the heart of it. Link
Related Now Public Article Constitutional Laywer: Bush Defied Law

Relevant Reading: Erich Fromm, Anatomy of Human Destructiveness

Update Fresh from the rev bill forums a movie recommendation:
Century of the Self
"Documentary about the role of psychoanalysis, marketing, and public relations in the united states"

Part 1 Century of the self

Uwe Paschen

at 19:52 on December 19th, 2008

Yes, The Week point of Humanity. Maybe why we are still failing our world and society as well as our environment.

Maybe we are doomed for extinction and will have to be replaced by a better specie with less flaws.

Ants? Spiders? maybe Bee's.

lefty_liberated

at 20:07 on December 19th, 2008

Cockroaches....lol.

lefty_liberated

at 20:10 on December 19th, 2008

Kudos on the Sheep Photo! Hahahahahaaha. or are those goats...close enough. herd mentality well illustrated.

Those goats are probably now property of the Chinese.

Erik Larson

at 20:26 on December 19th, 2008

thx for th links, lefty- and Paschen, my theory is that AI will be the superior intelligence; will work for solar electricity, and not tempted to do evil for money, power or thrills. AI in the control of the current power elite may be a disaster, though; the sooner it gets "smart", the better.

Accelerating Change

polylogue

at 20:44 on December 19th, 2008

Good piece. I'm just amazed that they could find people who didn't know about Milgram to do the experiment and then get the same results. I have heard so many people talking about Milgram over the years that I sort of thought it was just common knowledge.