Psychopathy/Antisocial Personality Disorder: Diagnostic Confusion

I know someone who is skitzo-effective (schizophrenia and bipolar combined) She believes she is the normal one and everybody else is odd.  It just goes to show how off she really is

"What" the news was is the old article i linked to thrice, which i specifically noted as having seemingly been ignored since its writing (by the doctor, not by the me). i added my own twists and hypotheses to it. "When" was noted as the original article's author's date of publication. "Where" isn't applicable, but the doctor's study indicated prison inmates. "Who" was noted categorically.

Relevance to current events:

Sociopathy, psychopathy and antisocial personality disorders AND the DSM are all currently and ALWAYS valid targets of discussion.

What was current: my hypotheses. If you know the field, which i don't know if you do, you would possibly recognize that i'm the only one daring to challenge the DSM's axis horse blinders.

Would you consider removing the "Needs Improvement" marking? :-)

thanks

-jace

I am searching for help for my nephew.  His mother died last year.  Her adopted son did not seem to have any feelings during the months she suffered and died of cancer.  He was obsessed with his friends, football and school.  I was with my brother and Tammy throughout the time she was dying.  No one could have been a more compassionate husband in caring for his wife.  And no mother and father could have been more dedicated to their son than Tammy and Randy.  They were at every game and school function for their son that there was.   Tammy became a teacher's aid to make sure he who is Aspergers did OK in school.  She was there for him. 

Yet throughout the time she was dying, he showed no love, emotion or feelings for her.  He was totally into himself.   He spent a lot of time on the computer.  At that time he took his dad's credit card and orders hundreds of dollars worth of sports equipment.  No guilt.  Only anger that his parents were upset about it and grounded him from the computer. 

After his mom died he wrote a eulogy that brought everyone to tears.  This is the boy that showed no emotion while she was alive.  His friend stood up with him when he read his eulogy and everyone cried for him. 

Six months later he wrote a eulogy for his dad and posted it on the internet.  He then tried to poison his father.  He was put in a psychiatric hospital and then in the county jail. His dad got a lawyer and got him out of jail.  I took my nephew in since he can't live with my brother, his father any more.  He is on probation.

He shows no guilt.  What is the difference between a psychopath, sociopath and aspergers?

This is disturbing. Thank you for writing. I will try to differentiate between sociopathy and psychopathy first, as the DSM and most people of authority WONT and don't know how to.

- Sociopath's do not typically actively participate directly in the physical harm of others. Sociopathy is an anti-social personality disorder. Read the flawed but accessible "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout. She does not distinguish between Sociopathy and Psychopathy very well, as it seems to have been a late revision to the book (seemingly previously titled "The Psychopath Next Door," according to web research on Stout and the book). The book is very good at describing and giving examples of sociopathy. Sociopaths try very hard to APPEAR to fit social norms, but this is paranoia and a way of hiding their true motivations: everything they do is a game for themselves to win over others. They tend to stop at direct physical assault (meaning they don't commit murder or cause physical injuries to people, but the psychological damage they do is worse since it's hidden). Sociopaths also may indirectly cause damage, death and other openly malignant effects by way of their antipathetic business decisions. Example: the sociopathic behavior of car companies which do cost analyses on which is more expensive: fixing a known dangerous defect, or dealing with the expected legal compensation the resulting injuries/deaths will cause. They choose the least expensive (more profit bearing) option. This is indirect murder. But you are unlikely to see a sociopath actually, in person, physically injure or assault someone other than their family members (and in those cases, it is in rage and often carefully done to avoid detection by outsiders). I argue that sociopaths do more damage to society because they are rarely, if ever, filtered out like psychopaths tend to be.

- Psychopathy is a related anti-social personality disorder which looks and behaves just like sociopathy with the very important difference that a psychopath is assured of their invulnerability and feels no need to hide their "grandeur" from seeing eyes. Psychopaths will not put out the same effort as a sociopath to APPEAR to fit the social norms. Like a sociopath, everything a psychopath does is a game for their own benefit and amusement. They are not insecure or paranoid like a sociopath. A psychopath WILL resort to direct actions of violence, instructing others to commit violence for them or doing it themselves. This is why they tend to get filtered out of society. In the end, the damage they do is horrific, but it's on a really small scale (with the exceptions of cult leaders who kill their followers in suicide orders).

A sociopath may become a psychopath. There is not much existing data to specify why or how, but it likely depends on the following:

- How successful is the sociopath? If VERY successful, they develop more delusions of security and invulnerability.

- How psychologically damaged is the sociopath from childhood? If there is extreme damage, sociopathy is merely a stage on the road to psychopathy.

Here comes the scary part. The origin of both of these personality disorders, and this is NOT and assessment you will find elsewhere other than dysamoria.com, seems to come from a progression that has roots in autism.

Autistic people are all different. Some cannot function without aid. Others are very high functioning, such as those with high functioning Asperger's Syndrome. Having autism DOES NOT MEAN having anti-social personality disorders.

Explanation: People with generally high functioning autism will not be diagnosed as having any specific developmental challenges. This leads to putting demands on them that they cannot meet due to their very nature. Schoolastic, social, whatever. This also leads to abuse from parents (as they push their child to do more than the child is able) and peers (who "observe" differences in the autistic person that make them uncomfortable or just intolerant and rough). Long term exposure to toxic life experiences lead to things like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder. PTSD and BPD are neurological defense mechanisms developed to protect the functioning of the person who is under constant assault. They can go undiagnosed unless specific events trigger stimulus-response behavior. People with BPD tend to develop a tolerance to feelings of remorse, guilt, responsibility to others, and other social norms because they've "learned" through abuse that no one else will protect them except themselves. They develop very "independence obsessed" life goals and are often unable to maintain relationships and employment for very long before they cycle into behaviors that destroy those relationships and workplace harmony (granted, the USA is largely sociopathic in its employment, so a better gauge is personal relationships and how they repeat the same patterns).

BPD has evidence (apparently not officially researched, but very strong in anecdotal examples) of being a stepping stone between an abused autistic and a sociopath.

Why autistics? They are greatly susceptable to and likely targets of abuse. Simple as that. Abuse leads to defense. You would be shocked at the number of people out there who are probably very diagnosable as having BPD (but who are not diagnosed or who are misdiagnosed with ADD/ADHD, bipolar disorder, cyclothemia, etc). It's just as much an epedemic as autism (and why not, since they seem to dovetail so well and appear as cause and effect in an indirect manner).

There is NO REASON to assume ANY autistic person is or will become a sociopath/psychopath. I am simply describing a pathology as I have observed it countless times both first hand and through third parties.

There are MANY MYTHS about autism that are JUST PLAIN UNTRUE.

Autism DOES NOT EQUATE TO:

- lack of empathy.
- naive, innappropriate, one-sided interaction
- little ability to form and sustain friendship
- poor non-verbal communication

These four bullet points are crap that author (and self appointed expert) Tony Atwood wrote, writes and is used as a citation in academic research papers. It's distorted, incomplete, pop-media stereotyping.

- lack of empathy is perceived from individuals who are overwhelmed with empathy and who have shut down to protect their sensitive nervous systems and emotional systems.
- naive is not a curse and is not permanant
- innappropriateness is extremely vague and open to variation in social/cultural norms
- one-sided interaction can ALSO be caused by the total disinterest of the OTHER party. Have you ever tried to tell someone about something that excited you but bored the other person?
- non-verbal communication MAY or MAY NOT be lacking, as this is a LEARNED behavior for ALL humans. If it is lacking, it can be learned through education or mimicry.

Most important:

The myths about autism/aspergers allow people to create assumptions that are dangerous to disabled people who need care, love, nurturing and everything else any other human being needs. To assume these myths are fact is to do a hideous disservice to these persons with a neurologically different brain structure and who already face life challenges. They are not evil, cruel, or fated to become either. If you abuse someone, you WILL create a damaged person. Monsters are not born, they are made.

Since I don't know [your family member's] age, I can only hypothesize.  If he was adopted, it would be important to know the biological parents' histories, behaviorisms, genetics, family history and the age of the adoption. No matter the care you give a damaged person, they are going to receive that care from a distorted perspective. Not knowing about this distorted perspective means you cannot correct for it. If [he] has AS, he also is likely to have other comorbid conditions such as depression, social anxiety and a hard time fitting in. He may have been harassed, abused, neglected, etc., by enough people in his world that his adopted parents know nothing about. Sometimes children do not report these things to their parents because they feel ashamed or embarrassed of their "failures." Also, if they have or wish to have an extroverted personality, they may overcompensate with new behaviors that they mimic from peers. Take the gruff USA male image into consideration and force that onto a child who is sensitive and under assault. Imagine forcing the tough guy attitude onto that child when it is unnatural for him. He tries to fit in by observing others and behaving the same way, usually mechanically, because it isn't natural for them. This is the road to obsessive behavior and type-A personality (among other things). "Control Freaks" come from this kind of upbringing.

Who encouraged [him] to get into sports? Was it encouragement or pushing? What kind of social ties does he have at school and outside? Are his peers arrogant and wealthy? What "castes" has [he] been in during his schooling years? Unless you take all of this, and more, into account, you can't analyze or judge the cause and effects nor work on solutions or corrections.

It sounds to me like [he] is one of the following:

- high functioning autistic with severe sensitivities that have been beaten into numbness and now all of his actions are mechanical and based on personal rewards gains since he has perceived his peers to have become socially acceptable by doing what they do (act like manly, unemotional, testosterone filled sportsmen with lots of access to expensive sporting equipment and obsessed with oneupmanship). In this case, the eulogy was a very well crafted piece of writing designed to simulate what "normal people do" while the second eulogy for the poisoned father was a result of having perceived social reward for the first eulogy. Automatic behaviors without thoughts of consequences outside of personal social acceptance by the larger groups of people. Likely he has BPD and didn't consider the consequences of his actions other than action A leads to reward B. 1+1=2. He may simply have no emotional ties to his adoption parents or have had to repress so much of his native emotional functioning that he no longer knows HOW to emote or experience emotions of empathy, guilt, remorse, etc. This does not mean that he is a sociopath, nor does it mean he is "bad because he has asperger's." Either way, if things happened as you described, he needs intervention with skilled, educated and modern thinking professionals. Avoid any materials by Tony Atwood and doctors/counselors who seem to favor Atwood. Conversely, Atwood has entrenched himself into the AS book community, so don't toss out a potentially good book if he happened to have written a forward or review for one. There is at least one super excellent book that has a forward by him and the book is not diminished at all because of it. Definitely avoid people who assume Atwood's bullet points (as I showed above) are truth and fact. Avoid people who assume Asperger's Syndrome = incapable of empathy. Avoid people who use the DSM like a bible.

- Or, maybe there is neurological trauma that has gone unrecognized. [He] may have suffered neurological damage (brain damage) to portions of his brain that allow the normal processing of information. This means raw information and emotional processing could be impaired. There are many cases to cite and I wont even try to list any. I've written too much here already. It is a fact: the brain is the mind. The mind is the brain. If something is damaged, the organ will not function "normally." It is worth investigating this if [he] is younger than 16. BPD tends to start to be recognizable from 16 and up. Either way, look into this as a potential issue that might have more targeted treatment. He could have AS AND some other kind of neurological issues that are not yet diagnosed.

I hope this information is useful to you in some way. If you would like to communicate directly with those of us at dysamoria.com, please email to dysamoria at dysamoria dot com. If there is any advise we can give beyond this, we'd be happy to try. We are NOT doctors. We cannot officially diagnose or prescribe. We simply have strong personal interests and experiences in these areas and are eager to be as much help to others as possible because we and those we care for have suffered for lack of proper care and knowledge.

Best wishes to you,

-Intransitivus
dysamoria.com

PazD,~blogavoidant's response is superb also (Dysamoria is a collective, sorry for any confusion).
PLEASE DO get in touch with us if you think that would be beneficial. Open communication and ACCURATE DISCOVERY is the BEST thing people can do for those with such complex emotional and neurological issues as [your family member].
-Intransitivus, Dysamoria.com

I recently read an article in The New Yorker that mentions Dr. Robert Hare's name and his accomplishments. The article is by John Seabrook who interviews a Dr. named Dr. Kent Keihl. Apparently Dr. Hare and Dr. Keihl use each others methods for dealing with Psychopaths. I have come to admire the people who research and study psychopaths. They have come up with methods that track symptoms of a psychopath and use it to diagnose young people who may become a psychopath. It is a very interesting article and I would recommend that you read it. Maybe you too will also come to admire the work of the Dr.'s and researchers who deal with psychopaths. Not only will you admire them, you may likely gain more knowledge of the understanding of a psychopath and their functions.

Tyrone H 

Thank you Tyrone H.

The type that concerns me more than a psychopath is the sociopath, though. Sociopaths are harder to filter out of society and therefore cause more destruction with their anti-society ways.

i wish i could have frank and direct discussions with people like Dr. Hare, and encourage them to develop ways to detect and track sociopaths, too, but these "professionals" are just way above my social level (from their side, i'm afraid to say - trying to discuss something with Dr. Hare via email proved to be fruitless; he said thanks for the reference, made some good comments and then said to read more in his book, etc.).

i get it all the time. People who think they're above me because i'm not one of their colleagues. (or even those who ARE one of my colleagues but who feels i should be beneath them, like my former boss). i was given the quick pass-over by many people in professional areas of psychiatrics. i could probably meet them all eye to eye in many areas or even exceed them... but the opportunity to even meet them at all is just about non-existent because i am not:

"a PhD"

or whatever "professional" designation people automatically assume you have if you happen to have a wealth of knowledge about a topic or topics.

Imagine their embarrassment when people at Kutztown University asked me what i was mastering in... only to find out that i was not taking masters classes and had never completed an undergrad degree (because of the autism being undiagnosed at the time when i had ANY chance with "proper" schooling). Several otherwise good people have changed their way of interacting with me (or stopped interacting) after following this process through and realizing i was not "one of them" or feeling that they'd been tricked. Or whatever these insecure people do.

To the world, i will always be a nobody... except to those who feel threatened by me. Somehow there are a lot of those. Enough that i am constantly mistreated in some manner or other... Like my web stalker who lives near me enough to describe my house.

Come to think of it... i wonder if my web stalker has AS also... Maybe that's why he/she/it is so fixated on the bowling ball. It's always some reference to the bowling ball... obsessive. But then, ANY stalker is obsessive.

i've been doing THIS for hours.

checking and replying to comments from people (mostly jerks) here on nowpublic, on old stories posted months ago.

THIS is not a life.

Very interesting comments.

I've long wondered the link between early emotional abuse and neglect with the development of autism.  I have an example I'd like to share.  A coworker had a son, 2 years old, who was recently diagnosed as autistic.  She is a loving caring mother but has admitted that her husband abuses her privately, although in public, he is quite a successful person.  I have always wondered what this little boy has witnessed, and how it is affecting his developing brain.  Many of his behaviors are similar to a child of abuse (withdrawn, limited eyecontact, speech delay)....

How is the role of covert personality disorders in parents evaluated in the diagnoses of Autism?

Hi sarah2009,

excellent question.

i think the answer is: "They might not be."

the only disorders potentially (not always) considered in the parents of people being evaluated/diagnosed with autism are other cases of autism. i state this from observation on the inside and outside, both personal and third party, and via what i've read so far in books on autism/AS.

there is a great deal of myopia in these areas. biological sciences are split by artificially removing "behavioral" or "mental" disorders from biology. this is a great road block to dealing with the underlying biological causes of "mental" issues.

part of it is a kind of isolation of issues via a scientific method approach and part of it is ignorance of the way in which all of these things DO interact and NEED to be observed and considered TOGETHER. with the superiority complexes running rampant in an area of study that defined "superiority complexes," i do not expect change to come soon.

more directly:
i think you are right to consider the abusive husband in the mix between your coworker and her son's autism diagnosis. your recognition of the behaviors being similar to children of abuse is spot on and wise. i would personally recommend discussing it with the mother and other appropriate care persons so that this child (and mother) might potentially benefit. i personally expect that the abuse DOES have an effect and SHOULD be considered.

thanks for reading and thanks for contributing to the discussion.

-jace
dysamoria

If anyone is interested, the war between myself and self-proclaimed sociopaths coming in to troll (throw stones at me for suggesting that they be filtered from society) still rages at the story that preceded this one... here: http://www.nowpublic.com/world/do-sociopaths-deserve-humane-treatment

it's a longer story, more personally fueled and maybe more controversial. It also has a lot of interesting responses... not unlike this story.

thanks for keeping things interesting, folks!

I have encountered and dealt with 3 people I could define as sociopaths. They intrigued me and I spent a lot of time studying them (passively) and found they all had the same following top 3 characteristics (I understand the sample is very small):

High social intelligence: they see the drift of any argument coming and position themselves long before they can get "pinned down". This was maybe from a constant practice of addressing all comments from a paranoiac standpoint.

Huge sense of self entitlement: This I think is the source of the "illness". It's definitely the internal argument they use for justifying whatever they do that's socially unacceptable (like not paying for services or refusing to pay their fair share).

Wealthy: Wherever possible they got others (girlfriends, business partners, anyone else) to pay for them while assiduously working at maximising their own profit. The natural outcome is they accumulated quite a lot of wealth.

My point is; these charactersistics are very successful in capitalist society and this type can easily rise in large organisations or general business making them possessors of a sort of super-functional dysfunction. With no mechanism or will in society to address the danger these people face, we end up with exactly the sort of economy-bankrupting maniacs we have now in the Corporate stratosphere. And we're paying the price for it.

excellent comments and observation. the three traits you described are things i can concur with. my ex-boss at Kutztown university justifies himself via entitlement and lives off his wife's income while saving his own (i've long worried that he'll find a way to "accidentally" let her diabetes harm her and make off with the money unshared as his retirement plan). chilling. hopefully making reference to it before the fact will help dissuade the action or be useful "evidence" should it happen. she's timid and submissive to his domineering behavior. he once told me "jace, i'm about to become a millionaire."