Truemors
is reporting from
Member
NP Rank:
NP Rank:
The Potential for Danger in Particle Collider Experiments
Share:
by slenderdog | February 7, 2008 at 04:55 am
19332 views | 2 Recommendations | 44 comments
The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a gigantic scientific instrument near Geneva, where it spans the border between Switzerland and France about 100 m underground. It is a particle accelerator used by physicists to study the smallest known particles – the fundamental building blocks of all things. It will revolutionise our understanding, from the miniscule world deep within atoms to the vastness of the Universe.
Two beams of subatomic particles called 'hadrons' – either protons or lead ions – will travel in opposite directions inside the circular accelerator, gaining energy with every lap. Physicists will use the LHC to recreate the conditions just after the Big Bang, by colliding the two beams head-on at very high energy. Teams of physicists from around the world will analyse the particles created in the collisions using special detectors in a number of experiments dedicated to the LHC.
There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions, but what's for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator, as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe. For decades, the Standard Model of particle physics has served physicists well as a means of understanding the fundamental laws of Nature, but it does not tell the whole story. Only experimental data using the higher energies reached by the LHC can push knowledge forward, challenging those who seek confirmation of established knowledge, and those who dare to dream beyond the paradigm.
While we might acclaim more knowledge as, generally, a good thing, we do have to wonder why we're being told of a "brave new world." Not everyone agrees that the LHC, however useful, is without serious risks:
Summary:
The upcoming Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN could be dangerous. It could produce potentially dangerous particles such as mini black holes, strangelets, and monopoles.
A CERN study indicates no danger for earth, [Ref. 1] but its arguments are incomplete. The reasons why they are incomplete are discussed here.
This paper considers mainly micro black holes (MBHs) with low speeds. The fact that the speed of resultant MBHs would be low is unique to colliders. An important issue is the rate of accretion of matter subsequent to MBH creation.
This study explores processes that could cause accretion to be significant.
Other dangers of the LHC accelerator are also discussed.
I. Arguments for danger in LHC particle accelerator experiments
"In the 27-kilometer-long circular tunnel that held its predecessor, the LHC will be the most powerful particle accelerator in the world. It will smash fundamental particles into one another at energies like those of the first trillionth of a second after the Big Bang, when the temperature of the Universe was about ten thousand trillion degrees Centigrade." [Ref. 5]
1. There is a high probability that micro black holes (MBHs) will be produced in the LHC. A reasonable estimation of the probability that theories with (4+d) dimensions are valid could be more than 60%. The CERN study indicates in this case a copious production of MBHs at the LHC. [Ref. 1] One MBH could be produced every second. [Ref. 4 & Ref. 5]
2. The CERN study indicates that MBHs present no danger because they will evaporate with Hawking evaporation. [Ref. 1] However, Hawking evaporation has never been tested. In several surveys, physicists have estimated a non trivial probability that Hawking evaporation will not work. [Ref. 9] My estimate of its risk of Hawking evaporation failure is 20%, or perhaps as much as 30%.
The following points assume MBH production, and they assume that Hawking evaporation will fail.
3. The cosmic ray model is not valid for the LHC. It has been said that cosmic rays, which have more energy than the LHC, show that there is no danger. This may be true for accelerators that shoot high energy particles at a zero speed target. This is similar to cosmic ray shock on the moon's surface. In these cases the center of mass of interaction retains a high speed. This is different from the situation at the LHC, where particles with opposing speeds collide. With cosmic rays (mainly protons in cosmic rays) we need a speed of 0.9999995 c to create a micro black hole of 1 TeV and after the interaction the micro black hole center of mass will have a speed of 0.999 c. As MBHs are not very reactive with matter, calculations indicate that this is more than enough velocity to cross planets or stars without being caught and to escape into space.
4. Lower speed MBHs created in colliders could be captured by earth. Using Greg Landsberg's calculation [Ref. 3] of one black hole with velocity less than escape velocity from earth produced every 10^5 seconds at the LHC, we have 3.160 (US notation 3,160) MBHs captured by earth in ten years. More precise calculations show that we could have a distribution of MBHs at every range of speed from 0 m/sec to 4 m/sec. The probability of very low speed MBHs is not zero. We need to evaluate if low speed MBHs present more risks.
5. The speed of a MBH captured by earth will decrease and at the end MBHs will come to rest in the center of earth. The speed will decrease because of accretion and interaction with matter.
If we consider that:
a. The CERN study's calculus for accretion uses the "Schwarzschild radius" for the accretion cross section. [Ref. 1] In the case of low speeds, we must not use the Schwarzschild radius for the calculus of accretion. There are several reasons the capture radius extends beyond the Schwarzschild radius. For example, if the MBH speed were zero, gravitational attraction would be active at a distance greater than the Schwarzschild radius.
b. If a MBH accretes an electron, it will acquire a charge and then probably accrete a proton.
c. If a MBH accretes a quark it will then probably accrete a proton. When a quark is caught, the whole nucleon can be expected to be caught because otherwise the black hole would have acquired a charge which is not complete. (For example minus 1/3.) In a nucleus a fractional charge is unstable and is not allowed. This strongly suggests that the MBH will be required to accrete other divided charges to reach a completed integer number of charges. The same process can be expected in regard to quark color.
d. Gauge forces at short distances could also help to capture an atomic nucleus.
Our calculus indicates that a slow speed MBH can be expected to capture 8.400 (US notation 8,400) nucleons every hour, at the beginning of an exponential process.
6. In the center of earth new processes could occur: As stated above, it has been estimated that in ten years 3.160 (US notation 3,160) MBHs could be captured by earth. All MBHs will progressively lose speed because of numerous interactions. After a time (calculations have to be completed to estimate this time) all these MBHs will go toward the precise gravitational center of earth. (Kip Thorne [Ref. 7 p. 111]) After numerous interactions they will stop there at rest and then coalesce into a single MBH. To get an idea and for a first approach our calculus indicates that the mass of this MBH could be on the order of 0.02 g with a radius of 4 x 10^-17 m. At the center of earth, the pressure is 3.6 x 10^11 Pascals. [Ref. 8]. This pressure results from all the matter in Earth pushing on the electronic cloud of central atoms. The move of electrons is responsible of a pressure (called degenerescence pressure) that counterbalance the pressure of all the matter in Earth.
Around a black hole there is not an electronic cloud and there is no degenerescence pressure to counterbalance the pressure of all the Earth matter.To indicate the pressure we must use the surface If in an equation Pressure P = Force F / Surface S if we keep F= Constant and we reduce surface, we are obliged to notice that Pressure P will increase. Here F is the weight of all the matter of Earth and this do not change. As the surface of the MBH will be very small, calculus indicate on this surface an impressive increase of pressure in the range of : P = aprox 7 x 10 ^ 23 Pa .
The high pressure in this region push strongly all the matter in direction of the central point where the MBH is.
Electrons directly in contact with the Micro Black Hole will first be caught, then the nucleus will be caught.
It is sure that the atoms will be caught one after the other but the more the pressure will be important the more the caught will be quick. When a neutron star begins to collapse in a black hole (implosion), at the beginning the black hole is only a micro black hole as we see in [Ref. 7 Page 443]. At this very moment the high gravitational pressure in the center of the neutron star is there breaking the "strong force" which lays between the quarks located into the neutrons.
The MBH will grow there only because of the high pressure.
In center of Earth pressure is normally far to small for such a process, but if we create a slow speed MBH that does not evaporate and if this MBH comes at rest in the center of Earth, the pressure in the center of Earth could be sufficient for the growing of the MBH. We must remember that in the surrounding of the MBH the "strong force" is broken and this could mean that the same kind of pressure process than in neutron star could work there ( in a slow mode compared with a neutron star of course ). In the center of Earth, the high pressure, the high temperature, the increasing mass associated with electrical and gauge forces process could mean important increase of capture and a possible beginning of an exponential dangerous accretion process. Our calculus indicates as a first approximation with a MBH of 0.02 g at rest at the center of earth that the value for accretion of matter could be in the range of 1 g/sec to 5 g/sec.
7. Conclusion about MBHs : We estimate that for LHC the risk in the range of 7% to 10%.
II. Other Risk Factors
The CERN study indicates that strangelets and monopoles could be produced and present no danger for earth. [Ref. 1]
We will present arguments of possible danger.
1. Strangelets
Strangelets are only dangerous for earth if they are not moving rapidly through matter. If only one strangelet is at zero speed there would be danger. We have seen for MBHs that the cosmic ray model is very different from the LHC where particles with opposing speeds collide. We have seen that, given the impact of opposite speed particles, the distribution of speeds of resultant particles indicates the probability of very low speeds (0 m/sec < speed < 4 m/sec) and this could mean dangerous strangelets. We estimate a minimal risk for strangelets on the order of 2%. We might estimate as high as 10 % if we want to be wise because the danger is primary!
2. Monopoles
Monopoles could be produced in the LHC. [Ref. 1] .CERN's calculations indicate that one monopole produced in LHC could destroy 1.018 (US notation 1,018) nucleons but it will quickly traverse the earth and escape into space. However, we know that photons produced in the center of the sun need thousands of years to traverse the sun and escape into space because of the numerous interactions. If the speed given to the monopole after interaction is a speed in a random direction, we can imagine that the monopoles produced in the LHC could stay a very long time in earth and be dangerous. 3. Estimate of danger due to our ignorance of ultimate physical laws: We have not exhausted processes that might cause danger. There are other particles, black energy, black mass, quintessence, vacuum energy, and many non definitive theories. We estimate this danger ranging from a minimal 2% risk to 5%.
III. CONCLUSION
The CERN study [Ref. 1] is a remake of a similar study for the earlier Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider at Brookhaven (RHIC) [Ref. 6] adapted to the LHC.
It is important to notice that: The study for the RHIC had concluded that no black holes will be created. For the LHC the conclusion is very different: "Black holes could be created!" !
The main danger could be now just behind our door with the possible death in blood of 6.500.000.000 (US notation 6,500,000,000) people and complete destruction of our beautiful planet. Such a danger shows the need of a far larger study before any experiment ! The CERN study presents risk as a choice between a 100% risk or a 0% risk. This is not a good evaluation of a risk percentage!
If we add all the risks for the LHC we could estimate an overall risk between 11% and 25%!.
We are far from the Adrian Kent's admonition that global risks that should not exceed 0.000001% a year to have a chance to be acceptable. [Ref. 3] .Even testing the LHC could be dangerous. Even an increase in the luminosity of the RHIC could be dangerous! It would be wise to consider that the more powerful the accelerator will be, the more unpredicted and dangerous the events that may occur! We cannot build accelerators always more powerful with interactions different from natural interactions, without risk. This is not a scientific problem. This is a wisdom problem!
Our desire of knowledge is important but our desire of wisdom is more important and must take precedence. The precautionary principle indicates not to experiment. The politicians must understand this evidence and stop these experiments before it is too late!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
References:
1.. Study of potentially dangerous events during heavy-ion collisions at the LHC: Report of the LHC Safety Study Group. CERN 2003-001. February 28, 2003.
2.. E-mail exchange between Greg Landsberg and James Blodgett, March 2003, http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org. (No longer posted. Request a copy. Risk Evaluation Forum, BOX 2371, Albany, NY 12220 0371 USA.)
3.. A critical look at risk assessment for global catastrophes, Adrian Kent, CERN-TH 2000-029 DAMTP-2000-105. Revised April 2003. hep-ph/0009204. Available at: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-ph/pdf/000....
4.. High energy colliders as black hole factories: the end of short distance physics, Steven B. Giddings, Scott Thomas. Phys Rev D65 (2002) 056010.
5.. CERN to spew black holes, Nature October 2, 2001.
6.. Review of speculative disaster scenarios at RHIC September 28, 1999 W.Busza, R.L. Jaffe, J.Sandweiss and F.Wilczek.
7.. Trous noirs et distorsions du temps, Kip S. Thorne, Flammarion 1997. ISBN 2-08-0811463-X. Original title: Black holes and times warps. 1994 Norton. New York.
8.. Centre de la Terre, Science & Vie N 1042. Gallate 2004.
9.. Results of several Delphi groups and physicist questionnaires, James Blodgett, Risk Evaluation Forum, forthcoming.
We believe that sooner or later some damn fool is going to do something really stupid and kill thousands, millions, maybe billions of innocent people in the name of science. Why not now?
It isn't that we don't believe that scientific knowledge is worth pursuing. It's that we don't trust people who say "trust us," especially if they're experimenting.
Advertisement
NowPublic on Facebook
What is NowPublic?
NowPublic lets people work together to cover news events around the world.
Most Recommended Comment
Talisman (not verified)
Crowd Power
Most Recommended Stories in Tech & Biz
Recommendations (2)
Anonymous users (2)
Most RecentMost Recommended Comments (44)
at 23:04 on July 1st, 2008
3 points:
I am against the test. As the progam started many years ago, it would take a lot to stop it, as these things develop a momentum of their own, similar to say "lets investigate if Iraq has weapons of mass destruction". Suddenly reports are coming in, proving one thing. And there's no audible argument from the other side.
Scientific progress has been remarkable, but blotted by some notable failures eg Thalidomide,etc. Perhaps the world would have been better without some of these things.
There not so many benefits, to be gained from this. And if the risk is .0000000001 , with the stakes so high it is still not worth it.
John
at 15:17 on July 23rd, 2008
I do not understand how can a group of "independant scientists" allow the CERN to assert that the LHC represents NO risks.
This is absurd.
If hypothesis about the similarity between cosmic rays and levels of energy produced in the LHC are right, and if microscopic blackholes are to evaporate quickly, so maybe, there is no big risks of Earth's sudden disappearance, or of major cosmic event of that kind.
But, such hich levels of energy on earth, manipulating near absolute zero matter etc., can NOT be "no-hazard" activity.
If we believe the CERN website, it is a matter of fact. So, might we ask, isn't there any Safety System at LHC ? Do all workers on the site can simply walk along in the tunnels and unplug some cables during the experiments, without any danger ?
If the CERN wants to avoid "unrationnal fear" among the "public", it may communicate a bit more honestly.
at 12:29 on July 31st, 2008
This experiment is a big mistake in my opinion. We should at least wait till GLAST before flipping the switch on the LHC. What i find funny is that this has not been brought to the public as much as it should. They say the risk of a disaster is pretty much 0%, but its exactly that "pretty Much" which basically means "probably nothing is gonna happen" that worries everyone.
This is the largest, most expensive and complex machine man kind has ever built so why only a small % of the general public knows about it ????
I agree that sacrifices are required in order for the human race to advance but we are tempering with forces we do not know based on Ifs and buts. Yes the risk is impossibly small buts its not worth it in contrast to whats at stake if something we cannot foreseen happen.
Halt this project till we have a more firm understanding of what we are dealing with !!!
at 19:19 on August 2nd, 2008
Here we go again! Deja vu: This is just modern replay of something that has already happened in the history of mankind. The incident is recalled in Book of Genesis chapter 11 - The Tower of Babel. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Arrogance (those running the show) vs. Ignorance (those who don't even know the show is running).
at 04:35 on August 4th, 2008
The odds of danger are not 1 in 50 million. I calculate the odds at closer to 1 in 10. But I could be wrong, the odds of danger may be closer to 1 in 1.
Professor Rossler calculates that Hawking Radiation is not possible if micro black holes are created they will destroy the planet in 50 months to 50 years.
I agree, wait for the GLAST space telescope to attempt to detect Hawking Radiation. Wait for confirmation of safety arguments.
10 Tev collissions expected in a few weeks (early September 2008).
LHCFacts.org
at 04:43 on August 4th, 2008
Correction, first collissions expected in a few weeks at lower energies. 10 Tev collissions (a center of mass energy that some theories predict will be more than sufficient to create micro black holes) is not scheduled for a few months, probably November 2008.
http://lhc-commissioning.web.cern.ch/lhc-commissioning/
at 11:53 on August 7th, 2008
Suppose the odds of danger actually were 1 in 50 million. If that is the probability for killing 6 500 000 000 people, a simple probability calculation tells us that the project "expects" to kill as many as 130 people. Even that would be totally unacceptable. And I agree with you, statements made by CERN scientists have not convinced me that they have got the knowledge needed for narrowing the odds down to 1 in 50 million. Meaning the expected number of casualties is probably a lot higher than 130. Haven't anyone with the appropriate authority thought about that?
at 05:37 on August 4th, 2008
Are the most known scientists of the major powers (USA, CHINA, RUSSIA, INDIA, FRANCE, UK, BRAZIL, JAPAN, CANADA) to mention just a few, in agreement to carry out the CERN experiments?
Luis D. Rey
NYC
at 13:27 on August 4th, 2008
I have a few concerns about this idea. 1. If you beleive in god or a creator of the earth to which all things come then why would you compel yourself back to biblical times when it has been documented that at one point man or man of that period had become smart enough to build something that would get him into heaven and the creator made this man dumb and quickly dispersed him at this point. I think the fact here recently they've had problems with the magnets is a sign for things to come and would seriously look at it as a warning both scientific and biblical.
at 05:14 on August 9th, 2008
All this is absurd. America for a long time ignored the climate change and still isn't doing much against it. But you guys now are worried about such unlikely things to happen. Even if: I'd prefer a quick death by falling into a black hole than dying slowly on a more and more polluted planet or watching my children and grandchildren taking all chances of survivial because some people just care about oil and profit instead of humankind. Let them test, we will see what happens. Maybe this is God's grace: to take us away by a quick death instead of choking on our exhaust fumes...
at 09:00 on August 13th, 2008
Thankyou for such a well written article. I agree 100%...
Most importantly, NO ONE has the right to endanger the Earth in this way; no one can be given that right. The Earth is not even ours to put at risk!
I agree with the other comment: I wouldn't care if the danger were as low as 0.000001% a year... it's still to high... people win the lottery all the time with similar odds.
Other than that, what does this experiment actually reveal that is so bloody important? Will it just provide further un-answered questions? Who the hell really cares? With all the hate, inequality, jealousy, poverty, wars, etc, I doubt we'll even be here in a thousand years' time, let alone billions of years in the future. But it would be nice to know that the Earth is still here, even if we aren't still stuffing around with everything...
I think those particle physicists should wake up & come back to reality. There's plenty of other tricky problems that need solutions... it sounds to me like a giant pissing contest -held by a bunch of nerds- to see who has the balls to perform the biggest experiment. If something has never ever been performed before, predictions aren't worth the paper they're written on. Any fool knows that.
How can anyone asssume that the risk is ZERO, when they are approaching localised 'big bang' energies? How do they think that event started?!
at 18:23 on August 13th, 2008
it's funny to read americans, and their opinions...
People who voted for someone who told you Sadam was under 11S
The only country who used ATOMICS bombs agains other humans
The only country who has enough chemical warfare to kill us all..
And worries about a particle that can appear .. in a experiment, they don't want to join, not because they scientists think is a mistake.. but because they want to spend money on war and anti-missile programs who won't work
PLEASE AMERICANS AWAKE !!!
at 12:52 on May 25th, 2009
Hey, one of those particals is far more dangerous than anything you can imagine. People say Im psychic. I have weird dreams, I guess things. And haunted houses go nuts when I visit them. No Im not crazy, I have many shocked believers in my life. It helps that many people in this area have seen some crazy things. One thing that scares the hell out of me is this dream Ive had since I was a kid. Its always a little different. But very, very real. Basicaly its like the strange matter theory. Like this nothing ness, or blackness is spreading over everyone and everything, un checked, un stopable. If I told my people about this they would freak. Because they know how many of my dreams have been right. Belive it all or not, Im telling you this is the ultimate danger, and the kind of thing that wilol eventualy kill us all, horribly, very, very horribly. Id rather be killed by this fake global warming. That was created to make some companies that are run by many our new leaders endless incoming money. People likegore who are ultra greedy rich pigs and are always caught as lieing hypocrites.Who has talked about polution, no one. But that cost money to fix dooesnt it. My town, and many others here in illinois are very poluted. But that cost money to deal with. They refuse to spend a dime to clean up our radioactive waste, or the next towns arsenic, of the next towns acid water, I can go on and on. So many poluted towns in the US. But the rich run these green companies to make money. Its a good investment. THE REAL THREAT TO THE HUMAN RACE IS OUR LEADERDS AND SCIENTIST. THEY WILL CAUSE THE BIGGEST DISATERS TO COME. YOU WILL WISH YOU GOT NUKED OF CHEMED IN THE END. THESE PARTICALS WILL KILL YOU MOST HORRIBLY, OR LEAVE YOU IN A MUTATED, HORRIBLE STATE. So many experiments, so risky. Its only a matter of time. Strangelets, anti matter, ebola, nuke technology. I garantee they will only hurt more than they help. Humans are ultra self destructive, on every level. And far to curious for our own good.
at 18:32 on August 13th, 2008
What about the experiment America did, undercover, for making the attempt of producing the first nuclear bombs.
What about the H-bomb test, who created chain-reactions.. and tested on hearth several times.
What about all the experiments being done right know, without knowledge and supported by industry-lobbies.
What about the Chemical warfare... nuclear warfare..
All experiments, have risk.. living has risk.. we can be shot by an asteroid, but if we develop technology, perhaps in the future, can stop them before..
Live wants to be alive.. and research is necessary to someday, perhaps, go away from this planet, and expand DNA that required so many time to reach our days..
We are now DESTROYING our world, and .. nothing is being done in america for stopping that.. We in Europe, can't import many of your cars because they don't comply with emissions regulations. Why are you worring about that.. if you can't worry about your planet or your people for all the time america has been existing for ? You even don't have free social security !!
Your way.. of living, buying, living in ignorance, and shooting like cowboys, are not the way to live in this planet. There is more apart from America... Someday.. Think about it
at 13:01 on May 25th, 2009
Right, you seriously need to quite listening to idiopts and watching TV. You ahve no Idea what the hell you are talking about. Almost everything you said was wrong, or grossly over exagerated. Poor taste. And you come off like a compulsive liar. You a fool. And anyone with any sense and science should fear this. Obviously your brain can loo past small stupid things. Too many cowboy movies for you. If you actualy come here, you will see you very, very wrong. You make us americans sound like idiots, but your the one with stupid mental images, and false info. In the end you look like the idiot. Obviously you dont have the mind to even grasp this discusion and the danger of what we may bring apon our selves. When we tested the neks, we stupidly exposed many of our people. One thing is always right inscience, and that is that scientist are always wrong to some degree, always and never get things just right. THIS IS VITAL TO THINK ABOUT. Because now we are getting tothe point where one small mistake could easily kill everyone of us, horribly. Kids women, dead. There is no more room for small erors. But watch as they move forward unsure anyways.
at 08:09 on August 17th, 2008
With this kind of experiment the question about the sense and the usefulness of (Western) science as such is posed. Is the scientific knowledge of any relevance for our lives as human beings? And if there is any, what does it concern?
It is certainly good to have knowledge of how to survive in the best possible way in the given human condition. This knowledge is quite easy to get. It is simply life experience over generations. It doesn't even need "science". Our life is determined by what is surrounding us in a rather close distance. And relevant science has to study this environment and find out how the best to adopt to it. All peoples in the world have (or better: had) this knowledge.
But the interest of Western Man, driven mainly by pure greed and neurotic discontent, went beyond this relevant surrounding. So also Western "science" went out of the relevant framework. Its aim since then is to satisfy the greed by finding knowledge of how to "exploit" more and better the whole planet (other peoples included), to make more money and higher "economic growth" and to satisfy neurotic discontent by trying to know THE LAST KNOWLEDGE ABOUT EVERYTHING in order to change our condition and this is finally to overcome death and leave our bodies.
Back to CERN: Is the knowledge about what happened at the big bang of any relevance for our concrete life as humans? To take in this experiment the risk of destroying our whole "condition" (our bodies, our earth, ...) shows that this science is beyond humanity, has left any relevance to the real objective needs of mankind ... and even opposes itself to these needs ...
at 01:41 on August 19th, 2008
Man's technology has exceeded his grasp. - 'The World is not Enough'
Zealous Nobel Prize hungry Physicists are racing each other and stopping at nothing to try to find the supposed 'Higgs Boson'(aka God) Particle, among others, and are risking nothing less than the annihilation of the Earth and all Life in endless experiments hoping to prove a theory when urgent tangible problems face the planet. The European Organization for Nuclear Research(CERN) new Large Hadron Collider(LHC) is the world's most powerful atom smasher that will soon be firing subatomic particles at each other at nearly the speed of light to create Miniature Big Bangs producing Micro Black Holes, Strangelets and other potentially cataclysmic phenomena.
Particle physicists have run out of ideas and are at a dead end forcing them to take reckless chances with more and more powerful and costly machines to create new and never-seen-before, unstable and unknown matter while Astrophysicists, on the other hand, are advancing science and knowledge on a daily basis making new discoveries in these same areas by observing the universe, not experimenting with it and with your life.
The LHC is a dangerous gamble as CERN physicist Alvaro De Rújula in the BBC LHC documentary, 'The Six Billion Dollar Experiment', incredibly admits quote, "Will we find the Higgs particle at the LHC? That, of course, is the question. And the answer is, science is what we do when we don't know what we're doing." And CERN spokesmodel Brian Cox follows with this stunning quote, "the LHC is certainly, by far, the biggest jump into the unknown."
The CERN-LHC website Mainpage itself states: "There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions,..." Again, this is because they truly don't know what's going to happen. They are experimenting with forces they don't understand to obtain results they can't comprehend. If you think like most people do that 'They must know what they're doing' you could not be more wrong. Some people think similarly about medical Dr.s but consider this by way of comparison and example from JAMA: "A recent Institute of Medicine report quoted rates estimating that medical errors kill between 44,000 and 98,000 people a year in US hospitals." The second part of the CERN quote reads "...but what's for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator,..." A molecularly changed or Black Hole consumed Lifeless World? The end of the quote reads "...as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe." These experiments to date have so far produced infinitely more questions than answers but there isn't a particle physicist alive who wouldn't gladly trade his life to glimpse the "God particle", and sacrifice the rest of us with him. Reason and common sense will tell you that the risks far outweigh any potential(as CERN physicists themselves say) benefits.
This quote from National Geographic exactly sums this "science" up: "That's the essence of experimental particle physics: You smash stuff together and see what other stuff comes out."
Find out more about that "stuff" below;
http://www.SaneScience.org/
http://www.LHCFacts.org
http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm
http://www.lhcdefense.org/
http://www.lhcconcerns.com
Popular Mechanics - "World's Biggest Science Project Aims to Unlock 'God Particle'" - http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme_machines/4216588.html"
at 03:21 on August 23rd, 2008
CERN may or may not successfully achieve high energy collisions in 2008 without damaging the equipment in the rush to start up after years of delays.
Micro black holes may or may not be created.
If micro black holes are created, they may or may not grow at a rate capable of posing a near term threat.
I don't know what the odds of danger are, but I tend to agree with lawsuit co-plaintiff and nuclear physicist Walter L. Wagner, arguments for danger are compelling and arguments for safety are disputed by Dr. Rossler, Dr. Plaga and others. The best estimation for the probability of danger is probably closer to 50%.
I am concerned.
at 06:47 on August 28th, 2008
I support this experiment due to the fact that we might achieve something out of it, someday.
at 11:56 on August 29th, 2008
I think there are no serious physicists in the references you give to support your tesis. Maybe somebody needs its 15 minutes glory here...The references have lots of words and few equations. You believe equations because they predict (and show) black holes Why don't you believe them when they predict no risk?
If somebody suddently comes up with a story about a virus found in Africa so strong that people can die in a day, probably you would thing our days are over...but ebola virus exists, is there and no global catastrophe has happened because is not only a question about high risk but critical mass and probability.
I think this is qualitatively the same.
at 08:03 on August 31st, 2008
Science should be used for the general benefit of humankind, and not to satisy the curiosity of a bunch of fearlessley arrogant physicists.
at 10:40 on September 1st, 2008
The problem is you never know when something is going to be of benefit. Check out how electricity was discovered: just by accident. Nobody thought :"Hey, I´m going to do research to invent an electrical motor...". the same about the microscope, the radio and surely all the basic science facts that eventually found application.
at 16:43 on September 18th, 2008
Don't forget maybe winning a Nobel Prize!! Phwoar!
at 09:51 on September 2nd, 2008
why do we need to know everything is beyond my comprehension.These crazy scientists who put everybody's lives at risk should understand that somethings are best left unanswered.We do not know if God exists and its a waste of time trying to prove it.We are born with an inbuilt faith mechanism that automatically makes us believe in His presence.We don't have to carry out experiments to prove it.We don't need experiments to prove how the universe came into being.Does the common man really care.Ignorance is bliss.What good will the truth do if the end result is getting sucked up in a black hole and kissing mother Earth goodbye.
at 12:23 on September 4th, 2008
I must have lost that "inbuilt faith mechanism"...And,surely, all people with polytheism or pantheism religions . Also, I don't mind if God exists or not, although i think is features are "too human-like" to be true. What I think is innate is curiosty, without race, country or political thinking distintion.
I don't think this experiment has nothing to do with God, but I think that believing something without curiosity about if it is true or not is more dangerous than this experiment,as History show.
at 01:58 on September 6th, 2008
if the experiment is about the big bang theory at some point there is going to be a "big bang"!
Simple!
Dont do it!
at 15:04 on September 9th, 2008
seriously, this is experiment is totally useless , why spen 10 billion pouds when most africans dont have 10 pounds to spend on food, do something useful u selfish geeks
at 00:28 on September 15th, 2008
I dont see how this is even being allowed. A relatively small number of people are taking the entire population of Earth's lives into their hands. I think more experimentation needs to be done before they go around colliding hadrons and creating black holes. It's a simple fact that this is all THEORY. No one can predict 100% what will happen. So, it makes sense, to us NON-geeks to just not do it. Bye bye us
at 10:47 on September 16th, 2008
Reverse the argument: black holes are also "theory".
at 14:11 on September 16th, 2008
First of all the LHC is a most beautyful piece of equipment and in the ruins of our civilisation it will be an outstanding archeological find:). Secondly - Doing anything constructive is much better than doing nothing at all. And finally - it is a much better way to spend resources than on any humanitarian cause because eliminating the worlds problems is not about some global goal but about the individual effort of everyone to be a better person.
As we uncover the laws that bind our world together we inevitably gain a fundamental respect for the harmony and beauty within them. The only problem with science is that it tries to bring order to chaos without realising that this order rests within a higher level of chaos. That is why explaining anything with solid definitions is ultimately fatal. Any law is only a tendency which leads to some other law that expands or replaces the original one. In that matter scientists are a bit child-like, but that is why I love them. Also experimenting is good for your mind.