The 44th President in between a stone and a hard place - Israel

What came first Tikun, the chicken or the Egg? 

Iran, Hamas, North Korea and the likes are merely excuses to justify the stale mate or the occupation in the case of Palestine. Those are no valid reasons and we all know it and yet some still use this thinking that the rest of Humanity is totally stupid and can not see be on the political lies and show. :)

Remember resolution 242?

Yes, he is. However, so far it is just questioning it nothing more. To little to late.

He did not need to be there had he been clear and Realistic from the beginning. He had one chance right at the start and he messed it up. 

Brilliant post! Verily, he has placed himself in b/w a stone and a hard place.

Israel will never retreat to the 1967 borders as long as there is hostility toward them.  I still think the only hope is to use Egypt as a broker.  They have influence with the Palestinians and a stake in what happens to them. 

In other words, any progress will require the involvement and support of the Arab League.  America, regardless of who is in power, will not be accepted as a broker by the Palestinians.  Perceived, or reality they are seen as staunch backers of the Israelis.

Well Done. There are a few minor errors in my opinion but overall right-on. One of the problems that must be solved before there is any chance of serious discussion is the Iran-Hamas-Hezbullah axis. This has created two entities with slightly different motives and/or ambitions regarding a future Palestinian State.

While I personally have never been  in favor of the outposts that are currently being dismantled most of what is in play regarding "settlements"  are clustered together,  relatively close to the old 67 Jordanian line . So in effect a land swap is all that is needed so that Gaza, former Egyptian land and citizens will be connected in some way to southern West Bank.

Part of the problem is that the "settlement" issue is a red herring since that is not what is stopping the momentum. It is the corruption and disarray within the Palestinian governments that prevent any real progress.

Bibi, Not who I wanted as PM, decided that the approach at this time best be economic at first and help the Palestinians improve their conditions. By and large the  millions upon millions of Euros and dollars thrown at the PA has been put into the coffers of the leadership and their clans.

If the money can be received directly into their economy then a stability of sorts will enable for the population to rise up and demand a peaceful settlement. It is by intent that they  keep the population on the brink of poverty in order for there to be a critical mass of tension.

By the way, there are places like Jericho, Ramallah, Jenin, etc where the leadership resides and where there is a concentration of "secular" Palestinians. These  areas  are examples of economic success  and the population has an economy that is allowed to support a rather large part of the inhabitants. This appears to be the example Bibi wants to use as the model for other parts of the West Bank. It works.

Why desire a State when the leadership of the Palestinians receive money without the obligation of running a State.

Anybody that has lived here for anytime seriously knows that there is a Middle East way in which progress and change takes place. What is most frustrating for many Western leaders and peoples is the lack of knowledge about the region and the loyalties with in the region. Be it within towns, villages, hamlets. Clans and families still to this day are only interested in providing advantages to their group which is frustrating when there is clearly a  need for all. 

Rarely does any progress happen here in a linear way. It is often convoluted and twisted. But that being said,  change can also take place in a moment if both parties can sit down and agree.

It is amazing, frustrating and awe inspiring all at the same time. 

Sorry for the length of the comment. I will stop here.

Hi Paschen,

Maybe you are right.  But then again ,we unenlightened people have also surprised ourselves and did what was necessary to find solutions. While as you know I disagree with some major points of your analysis I tend be an optimist and always leave the door open for change and hope. I do concern myself with those countries that are openly hostile and have leadership that appears to be willing to destroy mankind for their ideology. Iran and Korea in particular.

The toys today are very dangerous and will affect most of the world as we know it.

Be Well,

Steve

The atoms Paschen, lol

Foreign religious cultures and Asian cultures, seemingly are never studied or studies used when America places its big boots in the center ring. Its global chess game has all ways shown that factor. The American way is mostly not the right way and can not be imposed on each and every culture. It can look to be very rude and arrogant to many people of many cultures.

But I feel Obama is doing the right thing here by questioning Israel

Tikun thanks for you insight into this.  The problem is that a lot of people don.t know the various players that are involved in this.  If it was a straight issue of two people's reaching a solution it would be too easy.  I'm personally not a fan of the very public back and forth between the Obama Administration and Israel.  I think what needs to be said should be said in discussions between the leaders.  No matter what the eventual outcome is, people will be displaced.

When has he ever been realistic?

"It was land from Jordan and Gaza from the Egyptians. So lets not spin this more then needed."

Yep, thats something I had forgot the land does not even belong to the Palistinians, thanks for the reminder. The palistinians got ousted out of Israel after the Arabs attacked Israel after it declared it self the state of Israel. Israel refused to take them back after the first war that Israel won and held land they occupied at the results of defeating the Arabs as a buffer zone. If I remember right.    

Not that old chestnut please

I wrote an article after very deep research due to being fed up with the constant arguements and propaganda from both sides.

Prior to Israel declaring it self a state the land occupied by Arabs and Jews was term as being Palestine. The occupants Arabs and Jews where called Palestinians. 

Of course I would agree with you not all the Arabs that call themselves Palestinian's today belong to the groups of Arabs that fled the old state of Palestine many fled from land that was occupied after the being annexed by Israel.

But tut, tut, "So lets really be clear. If the Arabs were thrown out of Israel why do we have so many still living here?".

The answer being that they where the ones allowed to stay and the ones allowed back. lol 

Come on be fair. lol

Thanks for seeing what I see

Uwe,

You are relentless in your faulty logic. You really believe that these are excuses. But the reality doesn't bare out your thinking.

Just today Abbas with Obama said that he is in no hurry to solve anything since he believes that the pressure is off him and on Israel. So if it takes 2 years until the Israeli government changes hands he is in no rush to have serious talks. He also said that things are good in the West Bank with the economy doing very well. Ooops he told the truth in a moment of forgetfulness. my, my.

Abba sang "money, money, money is a rich mans thing" He is loaded and so are his lackeys.

You got to step back a bit from your ideology and see what is going on here. When you refer to the "occupation" it is as if Israel has taken over a state in 1967. But you know that is not the truth. It was land from Jordan and Gaza from the Egyptians. So lets not spin this more then needed.

As a critic of Israel said recently I was shocked to realize that you can on a clear day see across the entire country . I do not know of too many places where that is possible. This isn't an invasion as you make it out to be. If you REALLY are interested in peace here then get off the high horse and smell the flowers on this sunny day in Tel Aviv.

Have a good weekend.

Steve

Abbas is one Politician playing Poker and so is every one else in this game Tikun.

Look, be right if you like, either way the problem is not getting solved.

Guys it isn't about who is right. It is about what is actually going on today. Babel-Fish, Aside from what may have or may not have taken place during the 48 war there never was a  Palestinian people. So lets really be clear. If the Arabs were thrown out of Israel why do we have so many still living here?

Be Well, Both of you. Steve

Tikun, that is like saying they never was an Israeli people either. Denying the rights to the Palestinian is like denying the same to the Israeli. 

The Israeli came for the most part from Europe where as the Palestinian have been there all along. Big difference.

All I am saying is that all this back and forth is really irrelevant. What is taking place on the ground is and will determine how it will continue and play itself out.