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8 U.S. soldiers, 7 Afghans killed in attack
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by albertacowpoke | October 4, 2009 at 06:53 am
398 views | 36 Recommendations | 43 comments
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In one of the fiercest battles in over a year, the Taliban attacked two outposts in the northeastern region of Afghanistan near the Pakistan border.
The attack resulted in eight U.S. soldiers being killed along with 7 Afghan troops. Taliban forces have also taken heavy losses.
The daylong attack, which was well coordinated was fought over difficult terrain. The Taliban have taken responsibility for this attack.
Unconfirmed report on CBC Newsworld have conflicting statements that say up to 90 Afghan Police Officers have been captured. The Taliban apparently have said that a committee would decide whether they live and die.
The attack comes amidst a debate by the National Security Council over a report issued by General McChrystal which is said to have requested an additional 40,000 U.S. troops.
Eight American soldiers and as many as seven Afghan troops have been killed in a Taliban attack on two outposts in northeastern Afghanistan near the Pakistani border, the U.S. military says.
The Americans and Afghans repelled the attack and "inflicted heavy enemy casualties," the U.S. military said in a statement released Sunday.
About 300 militia fighters from a mosque and a nearby village in the mountainous province of Nuristan attacked the outposts before dawn Saturday, sparking the day-long battle. They first stormed one police post, then another run by NATO forces.
"This was a complex attack in a difficult area," said Col. Randy George, commander of U.S. forces in the region. "Both the U.S. and Afghan soldiers fought bravely together. I am extremely proud of their professionalism and bravery."
The Taliban claimed responsibility for the attack, the deadliest for NATO and aligned forces since a similar raid in July 2008 killed nine U.S. soldiers in the same mountainous region.
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Most RecentMost Recommended Comments (43)
at 07:14 on October 4th, 2009
"About 300 militia fighters from a mosque and a nearby village in the mountainous province of Nuristan attacked the outposts before dawn Saturday, sparking the day-long battle. They first stormed one police post, then another run by NATO forces."
Did NATO troops preserve the mosque? JEEZ, I hope so! We wouldn't want to upset the friendlies now would we? Hearts and minds . . .hearts and minds! BTW:Doe anyone know if President Obama is conducting focus sessions today?
at 07:20 on October 4th, 2009
This is precisely the kind of thing General McChrystal wants to get away from. These outposts are in areas that are not very populated. McChrystal wants to move into towns and villages.
at 07:29 on October 4th, 2009
Secure the towns and villages first! Yes! Set up a safe zone! Yes! Build a fort! Kinda like the U.S. Army did back in its Indian fighting days in remote outposts such as Wyoming.
at 07:34 on October 4th, 2009
Exactly, it is also a great source for intelligence once the locals trust you.
at 09:24 on October 4th, 2009
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19995042/Commander-Initial-Assessment-McCrystal
Here is the unclassified version of McCrystal's assessment. Like it or not, there is a change in policy with more of a focus on protecting the local population, and gaining the trust of the "civilians." This is only one part of the strategy. Eradicating the insurgency and increasing the size of the Afghan police force to a level of 400,000 is the ultimate goal.(The assessment says 160K).How long will it take to train and deploy 400,000 loyal and reliable local fighters. My guess is a LIFETIME!
It is easy to sit back and play armchair warrior. Contrary to what some people think, the President has shown a commitment to fighting the Taliban and al Qaeda. Additional troop requests have already been approved and deployed, and now we are being told another 20,000 are needed to "win" the "war." If waiting and deliberating a bit longer is detrimental to the outcome, then I would argue it is already too late to achieve "victory."
at 09:30 on October 4th, 2009
I don't think anyone is playing armchair warrior here. Apparently McChrystal's report has been around since the end of August. Would it be asking too much to have the Commander in Chief visit Afghanistan and get the tour and report first hand from the Commander he personally appointed? It would do a lot for the morale of the troops.
The Armchair Warriors are sitting in Washington.
at 10:07 on October 4th, 2009
No it wouldn't be a bad idea. I have no problem with it at all. I just don't like the way that some folks aligned with the military, and possibly Gen. McCrystal himself, got out in front of the Commander in Chief on the assessment. There is good reason why the military is subordinate to civilian control. I think General/President Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex some time ago.
Regarding the armchair warrior comment: We are all playing the role, myself included. It wasn't intended to be a personal affront to you, or anyone else.
at 09:57 on October 4th, 2009
nanute: There are a few on this site that are definitely not "armchair warriors". The writer of this story is one. They speak from experience and through the eyes of a soldier. I'm an armchair warrior! LOL! Talk to you later . . .I've got to strap on my .40 cal. and shoot some cotton mouths. . .that's the closest that I'll get to combat today.
at 10:11 on October 4th, 2009
Rory,
I speak from experience and through the eyes of having served my country. It doesn't preclude my ability to play armchair warrior. LOL!. Regarding the cottonmouths: Don't go all Hunter S. Thompson on me. Later.
at 07:49 on October 4th, 2009
President Obama isn't doing very well . . .is he? If the focus groups continue there's going to be "Hell No! We Won't Go!" demonstrations in the streets on the part of military families in spite of the fact that there's no draft. America's tolerance for war casualties is nowhere near as high as it was in the 60s. Today, 10 equals 100 or thereabouts . . . .
at 08:09 on October 4th, 2009
Personally, since President Obama had made the decision to replace General McKiernan with General McChrystal, I would have thought there would have been strategy as this change occurred.
I would suggest that President Obama should have visited Afghanistan once McChrystal got his feet on the ground. Apparently the report and recommendation by McChrystal has been around since end August. Why not, as Commander in Chief, take some of your most trusted advisors and go visit McChrystal, get a tour and get first hand information on what the concerns are.
The decision is ultimately his and not that of the military commanders. It must be an informed decision though based on first hand knowledge of the situation in Afghanistan.
Unfortunately Afghanistan does not make good news.
at 08:17 on October 4th, 2009
I am just finishing the book Threee Cups of Tea about Greg Mortenssin an American who builds schools in Afghanistan and has been doing it for almost ten years without military assistant or protection. He has proven it is possible to win "hearts and minds" through a non military effort, and does it one village at a time. I think McChrystal's concept of going into the towns and villages is a good one, but it doesnt necessarily have to be done by a military force. Mr. Mortenssin has proven this.
In the book there are examples where dissidents have tried to interfer and even block building efforts, but the village people handled them in their own way. In one situation, when construction on a school was beginning, a fundatmentalist Muslim came to the village saying Americans are evil, schools are wrong and girls shouldn't go to schools. The head of the village confronted him and said, "what do you want." He said give me all your sheep instead, and the villager agreed and the dissident left. The head of the village said, "When those sheep are dead and gone, our school will still be here."
This was a startling realization because I think we under estimate the powers and leverage of village people to use the methods they have developed over thousands of years to deal with antagonists who attempt to impose themselves. Tribal communities have been at odds with each other for centuries. We have only been there eight years. Instead of thinking we have a better idea, perhaps we should consider having a presence in Afgahistan, but one that is more humanitarian and less military.
at 08:45 on October 4th, 2009
a211423 - I read that too and was impressed by the gains made by simple activism, one person really can effect change. There is also an early readers version that I bought as a gift for some children of friends that includes the perspective of his daughter (@12 from memory) and her involvment. Priceless lessons from her parents and now reflected in her value set. Queen Rania of Jordan says the same in her campaign on education, that the way to best teach teens life lessons is by example not stricture. Great way to show kids the benefits of good works is to do it with them, I have tried to do the same with mine in smaller ways (we have done volunteer trips to Africa, Raratonga and New Orleans in the last few years). It gives them perspective on the world that is lacking in many who think the newest "toys" from Walmart are what is important
at 09:50 on October 4th, 2009
Thank you for the echo rng. I saw the early readers' version on Amazon, but didnt know exactly what it was. Thanks for the description.
Did you read Ancient Futures? It was one of the books that inspired Mortenssin.
Queen Rania of Jordon has advocated for women and education for years. She is a wonderful example of how Muslim women can maintain their faith and still be modern women.
Praises to you for being able to give your children a perspective on the world through good works. This is more valuable than any toys you could buy them anywhere.
at 15:08 on October 4th, 2009
Thank you. I have not read Ancient Futures I will add to my list
at 08:26 on October 4th, 2009
This is a noble concept A. I think it depends on the location of the village and a particular province. Canada has had Provincial Reconstruction teams in Afghanistan since 2003, I think. We also have the Canadian International Development Agency there. So we have had a 3D approach to this problem for some time. I think, without seeing the full McChrystal report, that this is the approach General McChrystal is recommending.
Even in Bosnia, it took the stick and carrot approach. You have to create the conditions to improve the economic well being of citizens.
at 10:15 on October 4th, 2009
One of the first things that the Mujahadeen would do when fighting the Russians was blow-up the new schoolhouse, the new hospital.
I learned this from my commie friends in the Bay Area!
You can't just build schools. You have to protect them. If that guy can build a school, it is because the American-led alliance of NATO protects those schools.
at 15:07 on October 4th, 2009
Actually no, his projects in both Pakistan and Afghanistan as they are built at the behest of and in partnership with the locals, and THAT is the big difference. Local buy-in
at 10:48 on October 4th, 2009
Roy,
I have heard of the situations for which you speak, and with regret many of the schools built lovingly by the military are targets for destruction. However, Mr. Mortensinn has been in Afghanistan since 1993, and the first project was a bridge, so he could get the materials to the place he wanted to build the school which was completed in 1996. ( I miscalculated the years in my first post.) NATO forces were not involved in building or protecting. The schools Mortenisinn finances are built by the Afghans themselves. Mortensinn was able to get a benefactor who financed intially and then set up a foundation that pays for the materials. The important factor, in my opinion, is that the Afghans build the schools.
at 11:41 on October 4th, 2009
Maybe we don't build, but we do protect the people from the incursions by the Taliban who would destroy that school.
If they stay, of course, it is different. Then they just stop the girls from having an education.
at 11:50 on October 4th, 2009
Please know I am not in any way negating or mitigating efforts by NATO to protect because I know that is their mission, and they work tirelessly to that end with great sacrifices. All I am suggesting is there might be another way to bring peace to Afghanistan, not as defined by the West, but defined by the Afghan people themselves.
at 10:54 on October 4th, 2009
Roy: How come the commies can get away with blowing up whatever they want and we can't? It ain't fair! LOL! It's kind of like cutting off the inoculated arms of children because the enemy inoculated them . . . .
at 12:11 on October 4th, 2009
You know we wouldn't need an additional 40 thousand troops if Politicians stayed out of military affairs and let the troops do what they were trained to do and stop all this political correctness and get down to business! That includes getting imbedded reporters out of bases. You know what I mean Karl, one trooper to another.
at 14:55 on October 4th, 2009
Barry: I'm shocked that you would suggest getting embedded reporters out of base! That just wouldn't be fair--for the reporters! HA! In all seriousness though, I would imagine that they're quite often a pain in the ass.
at 16:04 on October 4th, 2009
Yeah they are a pain in the butt, as they have to be protected too. Barry from one grunt to another I know exactly of what you speak.
at 15:17 on October 4th, 2009
I keep hearing this reference to "political correctness", but no one seems to be able to tell me what it means. I wish some of the more experienced of you can enlighten me.
at 16:06 on October 4th, 2009
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness
Here is a thorough discussion of political correctness.
at 02:08 on October 5th, 2009
Thanks. I do have an understanding of the term. I was merely trying to get a response from the individuals using the term in context. I don't like the term in general. It is usually used in a pejorative sense. Thanks for the link.
at 16:08 on October 4th, 2009
We need to remember that we are the ones that send the troops to Afghanistan in the first place. To leave them dangling without a strategy to me is a travesty. What exactly do we expect them to do. If we can.t define that, we need to bring them home. We have been through this once before in Vietnam. Let's not do it again.
at 01:54 on October 5th, 2009
APC,
The "strategy"" is laid out in McCrystal's assessment, that I sited up thread. (I'm not good with this tagging thing yet. Maybe you can fix it so the link is direct?)
There are similarities between Afghanistan and Viet Nam, but differences as well. Defining the "enemy" is probably the most difficult situation for the troops, just like in Nam. I know some people would just like to suspend the rules of engagement and allow indiscriminate killing. Sounds good, but I'm not sure this "wins" the conflict. At the end of the day, it is up the the citizens of Afghanistan to determine their future. Tribal culture and feuding has been going on there for centuries. For us (US) or anyone else to think we can change that mindset is wishful thinking.
I'd love to know what the original strategy was for this incursion. I think if I remember correctly, it was get BinLaden, dead or alive? I think we'd have to go into Pakistan to get a "mission accomplished," on that score. (If he is still alive.)
I'm gonna play armchair warrior here, and state categorically, this "war" was a mistake from the inception, and the sooner we can find a way out, the better. We've got the most sophisticated technology in the world, and keeping an eye on the bad guys should be doable. Containment, and special ops is the way to deal with this issue.