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WarriorSlave | September 9, 2011 at 01:08 pm
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These photographs show what is referred to as the "Meteor" found at the site of 9/11. It is a fussed mass of steel, re-bar, concrete and possibly people. How is it possible for aircraft fuel (Paraffin) and office furniture to create the tremendous heat necessary to fuse this material together? What the 9/11 Commission is claiming is that extreme temperatures can be reach using materials that physically do not generate these amounts. It is a scientific impossibility.
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at 14:19 on September 9th, 2011
Interesting..maybe extreme pressures in the collapse generated the additional heat factors.
Of interest:
Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation
at 16:58 on September 9th, 2011
However, it is difficult to determine how "extra" pressure could be created beyond normal gravity. If you can have an explanation or theory I would be interested. WS
at 18:26 on September 9th, 2011
The speed (from gravity) and weight (as the building collapsed upon itself) could have created such a focused energy, in a relatively reduced area, that it actually was able to vaporize or disintegrate much of both those buildings mass. That force could of also created an additional intense heat factor, from that pressure, to create the meteor you reference. Just looking at that picture, I'd say it did..
at 20:44 on September 9th, 2011
An interesting theory, but has zero scientific merit. Why would any building fall at the speed of gravity unless it was demolished?
at 07:15 on September 10th, 2011
Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation
Nearly every large building has a redundant design that allows for loss of one primary structural member, such as a column. However, when multiple members fail, the shifting loads eventually overstress the adjacent members and the collapse occurs like a row of dominoes falling down.
The perimeter tube design of the WTC was highly redundant. It survived the loss of several exterior columns due to aircraft impact, but the ensuing fire led to other steel failures. Many structural engineers believe that the weak points—the limiting factors on design allowables—were the angle clips that held the floor joists between the columns on the perimeter wall and the core structure. With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t beyond its own weight. The total weight of each tower was about 500,000 t.
As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour.
at 10:57 on September 10th, 2011
As this is a forum I encourage comments and debate. However, there is something suspicious about yours. Specifically, although on the surface they appear to be based on some sort of science, they are actually conjecture. You state that "Nearly every large building has a redundant design that allows for loss of one primary structural member, such as a column". On what "facts" is this statement based? How would you know that it is one or one hundred? You don't.
Then you state "However, when multiple members fail, the shifting loads eventually overstress the adjacent members and the collapse occurs like a row of dominoes falling down." "Multiple members" which means what? Which members are you referring to, the outer members or the massive central core constructed of...
“Some of the core columns apparently had outside dimensions of 36 inches by 16 inches. Others had larger dimensions, measuring 52 inches by 22 inches. The core columns were oriented so that their longer dimensions were perpendicular to the core structures' longer, 133-foot-wide sides.”
“The core columns were steel box-columns that were continuous for their entire height, going from their bedrock anchors in the sub-basements to near the towers' tops, where they transitioned to H-beams. Apparently the box columns, more than 1000 feet long, were built as the towers rose by welding together sections several stories tall. The sections were fabricated by mills in Japan that were uniquely equipped to produce the large pieces.” -Found at: www.911research.wtc7.net –Emphasis added by author
...and
“Then it is impossible that the jet fuel, by itself, raised the temperature of this floor more than 257° C (495° F). Now this temperature is nowhere near high enough to even begin explaining the World Trade Center Tower collapse.”
“It is not even close to the first critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F) where steel loses about half its strength and it is nowhere near the quotes of 1500° C that we constantly read about in our lying media.” -The full calculations can be found at: 911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian 2/wtc/how-hot.htm] –Emphasis added by author
...and
“A telegraph from the architectural firm Richard Roth, partner at Emery Roth & Sons, was distributed to reporters on February 14, 1965. The telegraph was in response to claims by real estate baron and Lawrence Wien that the design of the Twin Towers was unsound.”
“THE STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS CARRIED OUT BY THE FIRM OF WORTHINGTON, SKILLING, HELLE & JACKSON IS THE MOST COMPLETE AND DETAILED OF ANY EVER MADE FOR ANY BUILDING STRUCTURE. THE PRELIMINARY CALCULATIONS ALONE COVER 1,200 PAGES AND INVOLVE OVER 100 DETAILED DRAWINGS.”
“4. BECAUSE OF ITS CONFIGURATION, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY THAT OF A STEEL BEAM 209' DEEP, THE TOWERS ARE ACTUALLY FAR LESS DARING STRUCTURALLY THAN A CONVENTIONAL BUILDING SUCH AS THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING WHERE THE SPINE OR BRACED AREA OF THE BUILDING IS FAR SMALLER IN RELATION TO ITS HEIGHT.”
“5. THE BUILDING AS DESIGNED IS SIXTEEN TIMES STIFFER THAN A CONVENTIONAL STRUCTURE. THE DESIGN CONCEPT IS SO SOUND THAT THE STRUCTURAL ENGINEER HAS BEEN ABLE TO BE ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE IN HIS DESIGN WITHOUT ADVERSELY AFFECTING THE ECONOMICS OF THE STRUCTURE. -City in the Sky, p 134-6” –Found at: http://stj911.org –Emphasis added by author
You then state...
"As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour."
This statement is complete conjecture and disinformation. If as you state the heat was sufficient to melt and fracture the area where the floor was attached to the uprights, and this led to a "domino effect" this clearly proves that the massive central core would be still standing. If it collapsed at the same time as the floors the changes of symitry and a smooth decent is zero. Your words are very slippery and nonsense.
at 11:16 on September 10th, 2011
1. Presentation on WTC Collapse, Civil Engineering Department, MIT, Cambridge, MA (October 3, 2001).
2. D. Drysdale, An Introduction to Fire Dynamics (New York: Wiley Interscience, 1985), pp. 134–140.
3. A.E. Cote, ed., Fire Protection Handbook 17th Edition (Quincy, MA: National Fire Protection Association, 1992), pp. 10–67.
4. A.E. Cote, ed., Fire Protection Handbook 17th Edition (Quincy, MA: National Fire Protection Association, 1992), pp. 6-62 to 6-70.
5. Steven Ashley, “When the Twin Towers Fell,” Scientific American Online (October 9, 2001); www.sciam.com/explorations/2001/100901wtc/
6. Zdenek P. Bazant and Yong Zhou, “Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse?—Simple Analysis,” J. Engineering Mechanics ASCE, (September 28, 2001), also www.tam.uiuc.edu/news/200109wtc/
7. Timothy Wilkinson, “World Trade Centre–New York—Some Engineering Aspects” (October 25, 2001), Univ. Sydney, Department of Civil Engineering; www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.htm.
8. G. Charles Clifton, “Collapse of the World Trade Centers,” CAD Headlines,tenlinks.com (October 8, 2001); www.tenlinks.com/NEWS/special/wtc/clifton/p1.htm.
Thomas W. Eagar, the Thomas Lord Professor of Materials Engineering and Engineering Systems, and Christopher Musso, graduate research student, are at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
For more information, contact T.W. Eagar, MIT, 77 Massachusetts Avenue, Room 4-136, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139-4301; (617) 253-3229; fax (617) 252-1773; e-mail tweagar@mit.edu.
Also see:
The Role of Metallurgy in the NIST Investigation
of the World Trade Center Towers Collapse
at 11:29 on September 10th, 2011
...And in disagreement with your "evidence"....
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Al Lien (not verified)at 07:48 on September 10th, 2011
everyone knows that the alien nation responsible for all of mankind's technological advancement destroyed the twin towers in response to our failure to live up to the promise of the decree as written on the georgian guide stones
at 18:12 on September 10th, 2011
WarriorSlave..Not my evidence actually..lol There are many sides to this.
As for the reasons those towers collapsed the way they did, there are actually several ideas I've looked into..
Scrivener suggested the below link to me sometime ago now. I found it interesting..
http://wheredidthetowersgo.com/
I also found Jesse Ventura investigations into the towers collapse of interest:
From '63 Documents': Proof Of The 9/11 Cover-Up
The 23 Biggest 9/11 Coincidences
at 18:26 on September 10th, 2011
So far your argument is that if it looks, walks and talks like a duck it must be a pig. There is overwhelming evidence that the American government (along with the British, Canadian and most others) are a bunch of liars. The American people have been deceived for decades and thus they are automatically, just be default, the first group to look to as far as deception is concerned. This list is too long to name. But until you and others understand this then everything else is just fluff.
at 19:28 on September 10th, 2011
WarriorSlave not sure what this apparent animosity or misunderstanding between us is all about. I've been talking about the very things you elude to for years actually. I'm haven't been disagreeing with you actually. I probably know more about the world trade towers and this new world order than you. I only asked your opinion on both. Don't assume I'm talking out my ass on any of this. I actually only suggested a theory for your 9/11 Meteor..
at 19:47 on September 10th, 2011
I'm not here to tell you what to believe and have seen no evidence that you embrace anything other than the official story, so not sure why you are now pretending that you are actually an alternative thinker. If you know so much about it then make a statement to that effect if not then go elsewhere because we have mainstream media to contend with and you are wasting my time. Your "theory" about the meteor is based on what? Pressure created out of thin air. If you knew anything about physics then you would know that you can't get more out of something than is put into it. If the meteor is a fussed mass then this would suggest that an alternative energy source that we are not aware of was present such as mini nukes of an "energy" weapon. If you want to help then maybe exploring the vast amount of government malfeasance might be a good idea. Lastly, stop telling me how wonderful and knowledgeable you are. Its not a competition.
at 20:10 on September 10th, 2011
The immense pressure created by weight of the entire building collapsing on itself could create immense addtional heat factors..I didn't realize I'd have to explain this..
As for me embracing the offical story or pretending I'm an alternate thinker, you don't know me very well. I can see from your comments that understanding different ideas, that importance, and keeping an open mind in leading to deeper thought, understanding, and knowledge isn't your strongest point.
Eitherway I'll leave you the your ideas WarriorSlave..
at 20:23 on September 10th, 2011
Much appreciated. Try not to be so sensitive. In looking at your channel it appears that all you do is attach to someone else's work. Do you actually contribute?
at 07:09 on September 11th, 2011
"Try not to be so sensitive"..lol Maybe you should follow your own advice.. Being rude and insulting to others opinions or comments isn't the answer...And yes I've posted some articles. Sorry to bother you. Not the sharpest tool in the shed are you..
at 08:22 on September 11th, 2011
Ah, the ego talking again. Sorry to have insulted your delicate self and thank you for your insight.