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The Arab Holy Order Of Palestine vs. A Palestinian State.
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by djermano | September 6, 2008 at 09:17 pm
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The International Institute of Nonviolence News&Opinion By: Rev. Jermano The following is a very interesting read....In sum I have to disagree with the author.....I support the Vatican claim on Jerusalems old city......The issue is Palestine and Israel....Certainly the troubles with Palestine would end if they stopped seeking Statehood. I do not support a Palestinian Statehood, because it means supporting the idea of Palestine having the right to a military and having guns...This means violence, and you know me with the violent factor....I favor Nonviolence.. In fact Palestine has more to gain by not becoming a State. They should become a Holy Corban. I think Palestine should seek the Religious Order Agenda, and share the same with the Vatican..This brings many benefits which assures them ownership in kind with the Vatican and Israel..Palestine would not be subject to the State of Israel in paying taxes for land or for military support of the Israeli State. Israel would be foolish to attack the new Arab Holy Order of Palestine under the corban of the Vatican and Catholic Church. Rev.Jermano For some reason my story here does not appear in my story records trak...So I will repost, and keep an eye on it. Most assuredly Israel's Kadima favors a two state solution...which I think is a backdoor plan for segregation to keep Palestine out of Israel politics and decision making process...and then there is Likud with Netanyahu...who supports a single state idea...but for different reasons than I propose. .....I support a Nonviolence Palestine, that becomes a religious group as well. The Vatican Agenda By: Joel Bainerman Israelis have probably never thought very much about what the Roman Catholic Church/The Vatican thinks about "end of days" theology. Jews themselves don't give much thought to what will happen when "Gog and Magog" takes place. Jews don't go in for anything the least bit "next world" but instead are firmly planted in the here and know. That's good. However it doesn't matter what Jews think, what matters is what The Vatican believes, and why it believes this. Judaism, and modern Jewish thought pretty much just dismisses the basic tenets of Catholicism outright and doesn't even bother addressing the core questions of what is behind "Catholic theological claims." Instead of taking what they believe seriously, we tend to snicker amongst ourselves when we see those pictures of obscure rituals and ceremonies, and think the whole religion is near pagan-like with the "eating of Holy Wafers" and "sprinkling of Baptism water" on people's heads. That may be true, but that doesn't matter. What matters is what they believe and what they plan to do about making their beliefs become a reality. The institution of "The Vatican" is not understood by Israelis and Jews. The conventional wisdom you get from the spokespersons in Israeli government ministries and the conventional Israeli media is "both sides have great intentions to do good" and that's about it. When it comes to Israel's bi-lateral affairs, nothing much gets investigated by the Israeli media. Thus a secret deal could be done between the Vatican and the State of Israel and nobody in Israel would ever find out about it. In fact, that is exactly what happened. This essay will provide the background to that deal, as well as what the Vatican's intentions are regarding Israel and The Old City Of Jerusalem. It will reveal which Israeli politicians made certain commitments to The Vatican regarding the issue of sovereignty in the Old City of Jerusalem. These negotiations and meetings were all carried out in secret. During this time period, 1992-l995, the Oslo Accords was what got all the public's attention. Oslo was like "throwing sand in the eyes" of the public. The Vatican is where the real action was happening. Oslo seemed to be just the cover story. A "red herring", if you will. What Does The Vatican Want? It can't be that the Vatican is only interested in "access to their Holy Sites" in Jerusalem. They already have that as well as legal jurisdiction under Israeli law for their institutions and assets in Jerusalem. Also, when these "Holy Sites" were under the jurisdiction of the Jordanians from l948-l967, no Pope demanded the "internationalization of Jerusalem". It is something else, which the Vatican wants. The Roman Catholic Church, need to have certain versions of events be played out for them to stand in front of mankind and proclaim: our Messiah has returned." Of course, to the Jews, this Messiah will be as false as the first one was supposed to be. Don't matter. This is the goal of the Vatican and this is what all Israelis need to worry about. The Vatican/Roman Catholic's version of events is this: They know this isn't the end of the story that the Jewish G-d had in mind, but that doesn't mean they won't try and engineer their own ending to the story. So what if it is fraudulent. Doesn't matter, that is their game plan and that is what matters and that is what Israeli Jews need to be better informed about. It is important for everyone to know what The Vatican have up its sleeve because it directly relates to our existence and our future destiny as an independent nation. This a very powerful force this is scheming to get control of the Old City of Jerusalem so you better know why and how the Vatican intends to do this. Once you have all the facts and the chronological record you will be better informed deal with this issue and of foreign control over Israel's political existence and destiny. First, you have to realize that for centuries The Vatican has attempted to obtain control of Jerusalem, which started with the Crusades. For them to convince the world that the Messiah they put on the world's stage is going to be accepted as genuine, they need to perform this play in the Old City. The story of this production is that this "Messiah" will merge the three monotheistic religions, usher in peace and harmony in the world, and solve the Middle East conflict. The location for this "production" will be in none other than the Old City of Jerusalem. This so-called "Messiah" that will be proclaimed, will be a false one and it will insist that by having a "world government" (i.e., the United Nations) the world peace and harmony will be ushered in. This will be a lie, and a fraud, but never mind. In our world, reality isn't important. Public perceptions are. The end result is the stripping of Israel's sovereignty as an independent nation giving way to a "regional bloc of nations" in the Middle East. Israel will be pressured to accede to these demands by all world bodies and the superpowers on the claim that "this is the only way to solve the Middle East conflict). In order to the Jews to go along they will convince them that with the "Messiah" having appeared for the Jews, it is time to start rebuilding the Third Temple- what they call "Solomon's Temple". This version of events is widely available through a simple search on the Internet as there are many Christian groups and organizations (the majority of which who are very pro-Israel) who don't buy into these beliefs and thus are against them. I didn't come up with the theory- I am just brining it to the attention of the Israeli public. Make no mistake about it. The Old City of Jerusalem, as well as most of the eastern half of the city, is what The Vatican is after. Why? Because controlling the entire Old City of Jerusalem (and not just Church properties) and being able to build whatever they want on Mount Zion is critical for the program they have planned to put into play in our capital city. The deal that it has signed with Israel via Yossi Beilin and Shimon Peres (in secret and without the approval of the Knesset) gives The Church not only extraterritorial status to their properties (which is what the bi-lateral agreement the Israeli government signed with the Vatican on December 30th, 1993, put in law) but of control over the entire city as "custodians" under UN presence. In this way the Jews will give up control over the Old City. To the Vatican the Israeli people would have a problem with. To the UN, they would say, "we had no choice". A Chronology Of The Attempt By The Vatican To Displace Israel From The Old City Of Jerusalem The "Chronology of Events" for the Vatican's conquest of the Old City of Jerusalem is as follows- all of which can be verified via the sources of the information: October 1991 On October 12th, the head of the World Jewish Congress, Edgar Bronfman, is appointed head of the International Jewish Committee of Inter-religious Consultation to conduct officials contacts with The Vatican and the State of Israel. March 1992 On March 17th, Jerusalem Mayor Teddy Kollek says: "The Israeli government should meet the Vatican's demand to apply special status for Jerusalem." April 1992 On April 1st, The Vatican announced that it "favors a Labor victory" in the June 1992 general elections in Israel. On April 15th, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, one of the highest ranking diplomats at The Vatican, visits Israel for the first time but only meets with Jerusalem Mayor Teddy Kollek. June 1992 The story of The Catholic Church's attempt to abscond with the Old City of Jerusalem from the Jews begins in July 1992. According to the information on the Foreign Ministry website, literally from the moment the new Rabin-led Labor government took over from Yitzhak Shamir's defeated Likud party, secret talks with the Vatican and the State of Israel began. What precipitated these secret talks? Who arranged these talks, and why? Why were they kept secret from the Israeli public? What was the end result of these agreements? Where do they stand today? The entire subject of Israel's bi-lateral relations with the Vatican is intentionally kept locked away in secrecy. It is no wonder that nobody in Israel knows much about "Israel-Vatican relations" as it is never, ever reported on in the Israeli press. The official story of the origins of Israel's "secret channel contacts" between Beilin's negotiating team and the Vatican comes about as a result of Shlomo Gur, a personal aide to Deputy Foreign Minister Yossi Beilin, who knew someone who put him in touch with Father David Jaeger. Father David Jaeger was president of the Catholic Court in Austin, Texas, and was brought up as an Israeli orthodox Jew who then converted to Catholicism and became a Father (not something that has happened to many Israelis who grew up Orthodox). From there, which according to the information on the Israel Foreign Ministry website was in July 1992 right after the new Rabin government took over power, nothing is known about the discussions until the agreement is signed on Dec. 30th, 1993. Nothing in the Israeli press. The info given on the actual agreement signed was very minimal and general in tone. This is probably one of the most important political contacts Israel has in the world's "power structure" yet it isn't reported on in the press. Thus no Israelis know about it. That is how it remains hidden. November, l992 The document which was used as the underlying ideological basis for the Vatican's secret deal with Yossi Beilin and Shimon Peres was personally authored by Beilin. "The Illegitimacy of Israeli Sovereignty Over Jerusalem" outlines the Israeli government's program for the future of Jerusalem and calls for the division of the Old City into cantons whose border posts will be under UN control. The plan which led to the December, 1993 agreement between The Vatican and the State of Israel was originally discussed in November 1992 at the exact same time the first meetings in London took place to discuss an agreement between Israel and the PLO which led to the Oslo Agreements. The real goal was the Vatican attempt to take over the Old City of Jerusalem. Oslo, or, "peace between Israel and the Palestinians" was just a good cover story to hide what was really going on in another sphere of Israel's foreign affairs. September, 1993 On the 10th of September, just three days before the signing of the Oslo Accords Washington, the Italian newspaper La Stampa reported that then Foreign Minister Shimon Peres concluded a secret deal with the Vatican to hand over sovereignty of Jerusalem's Old City to the Vatican. the agreement and it was included in the secret clauses of the Declaration Of Principles signed on September 13th, 1993 in Washington, DC. In the same week that Israeli Foreign Minister and chief Oslo architect Shimon Peres signed the Declaration of Principles with Yasser Arafat in Washington, the Israel-Vatican commission held a special meeting in Israel. Under the Vatican agreement the Israelis would give over control the Old City to the Vatican before the year 2000. The plan also calls for Jerusalem to become the second Vatican of the world with all three major religions represented but under the authority of the Vatican. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel but the Old City will be administered by the Vatican. Arafat agreed to the plan just before the famous "handshake" in 1993, but when he realized that the Vatican was also going to let Israel share in the temple mount, he rejected it. (To get Arafat and the Palestinians "on board", on February 14th, 2000, the PA did sign an agreement with the Vatican which recognized the Palestinians' claims to East Jerusalem. The outbreak of the "Al Asqa Intifada" seven months after this agreement was signed may have been part of the commitment Arafat gave the Vatican as to what he would do for him in return for the Vatican acknowledging Palestinians claims to East Jerusalem and the right to statehood. The violence in the Middle East serves the Catholic Church's interest especially if Jerusalem is the subject to discuss. By Arafat getting guarantees from the Vatican that no matter what he does the Europeans will not abandon him, then it makes sense for him to declare war on Israel in Sept 2000. The "Barak gave him everything at Camp David" is propaganda. Nothing was offered that the Knesset would have approved. The intifada could only have happened if Arafat had gotten assurances from major European powers that he would survive. The agreement on Feb 2000 would have made more sense if it had occurred three or four years previous. However its timing when it was makes the Sept 2000 intifada seem logical from Arafat's perspective. November 1993 In a report in the Jerusalem weekly newspaper Kol Ha'ir, it was revealed that: "for the past six months, The Israeli government has been taking advice on the future of Jerusalem from a planning commission headed by a close aide of Teddy Kollek, Raanan Weitz, formerly the settlement director of the Jewish Agency. At a secret meeting on September 9, 1993, one day before Prime Minister Rabin signed the recognition agreement with the PLO in Israel, the forum met secretly and approved in principle a plan for Jerusalem concocted by Weitz, which he calls, "Metropolitan Jerusalem." December, 1993 With absolutely no media coverage in Israel, on December 30th an "historic agreement with the Vatican" is publicly acknowledged. Called: "The Fundamental Agreement Between The Holy See and The State of Israel", it declares: "Mindful of the singular character and universal significance of the Holy Land. Aware of the unique nature of the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Jewish people, and of the historic process of reconciliation and growth in mutual understanding and friendship between Catholics and Jews; "Having decided on 29 July 1992 to establish a 'Bilateral Permanent Working Commission', in order to study and define together issues of common interest, and in view of normalizing their relations." Already within one month of taking power there was a special committee to further "Israeli-Vatican Relations". From where did this initiative come so soon as the new government took office? April 1994 Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem Shmuel Meir announces at a Jerusalem press conference that he had received information that properties promised to the Vatican in Jerusalem would be granted extraterritorial status. (In early 1996 Meir was killed in a very suspicious car crash whereby the driver who drove a UN truck into Meir's car was not even charged.) May 1994 Marek Halter, a French intellectual/philosopher and a close friend of Peres, tells the Israeli weekly magazine HaShishi that he personally delivered a letter from Peres to the Pope in Sept, 1993 in which Peres promised to internationalize Jerusalem, granting the UN political control of the Old City of Jerusalem, and the Vatican hegemony of the holy sites within. The UN would give the PLO a capital within its new territory and East Jerusalem would become a kind of free trade zone of world diplomacy. June 1994 On June 15th, the Israeli government signs an agreement with The Vatican allowing the Catholic Church to participate in negotiations to determine the future of Jerusalem. July, 1994 On July 9th, 1994, the Vatican's Foreign Minister, Jean-Louis Tauran, announces in Amman, Jordan: "Before territorial problems are resolved, we have to find international guarantees to safeguard the uniqueness of the city and assurances that never again one party should claim Jerusalem as its possession." November l994 Israel signs a peace treaty with Jordan which, according to reports in Haaretz, Maariv, and Yediot Achronot, included secret clauses concerning water and Jerusalem. The agreement had been negotiated in London eight months before between Rabin, King Hussein, and Lord Victor Mishcon. As part of the agreement, Jordan would receive control over the Islamic Holy sites within a Vatican-controlled Old City of Jerusalem. March 1995 A cable from the Israeli Embassy in Rome to The Foreign Ministry was in Jerusalem is leaked to radio station Arutz Sheva, confirming the handover of Jerusalem to the Vatican. Two days later the cable made front page of Haaretz. In the widely distributed minutes of a meeting with President Clinton in 1997, Peres ended the cable with the words, "as I had previously promised the Holy See." April 1995 Member of Knesset Avraham Shapira announced in the Knesset that he had information that all Vatican property in Jerusalem was to become tax exempt and that large tracts of real estate on Mount Zion were given to the Pope in perpetuity. February l996 A delegation from the Vatican met in Jerusalem with Palestinian Authority Religious Affairs Minister, Hassan Tahbob. Father Serge Sebastian, Secretary General of the Vatican, announced that the Holy See recognizes Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem. After Shimon Peres had replaced Yitzhak Rabin as Israel's prime minister, Internal Security Minister Moshe Shachal refused to allow a Palestinian Authority meeting at the Vatican's Notre Dame Hospice in Jerusalem. According to Shachal, the Palestinians were planning to "use the Vatican to circumvent the Oslo Accords." November, 1997 On November 10th, the State of Israel and the Vatican sign the "Legal Personality Agreement" whereby the State of Israel agrees to "assure full effect law to the legal personality of the Catholic Church itself." (What that means in plain english is anyone's guess.) February 2000 Hedging its bets by having bi-lateral agreements with both sides in the Arab-Israeli conflict, on February 14th, Pope John Paul 11 meets Arafat in Rome to sign an accord to normalize relations between Roman Catholic churches in Jerusalem and PA. Palestinian Legislative Council Speaker Ahmed Qurei told The Jerusalem Post that the agreement is "recognition by the Catholic Church of the Palestinian claims to the eastern half of Jerusalem." According to Arafat's spokesperson, Nabil Abu Rudaineh, "Arafat had been lobbying for the idea of sharing undivided Jerusalem, and for creating a Vatican-style sovereignty in the Old City." (Somehow we are supposed to believe that Arafat initiated this, and not the Vatican). The agreement calls for Jerusalem to be "an international city based on international resolutions and an international guarantee." The pack was signed despite the Vatican having signed an agreement with Israel six years earlier on December 30th, 1993 which gave legal jurisdiction under Israeli law over the Church's own institutions and assets in the Holy Land. March 2000 The Pope visits the Holy Land and repeats the Holy See's insistence that" international oversight- 'a special statute, internationally guaranteed'- would best safeguard the city's holy sites and all its religions. The city of Jerusalem is the main obstacle to peace in the region." On March 27th, the Palestinian Authority says that The Vatican no longer insists on international status for the Old City of Jerusalem, and that The Vatican accepts the political division of the Old City between Israel and the Palestinians. (One has to wonder if this agreement had anything to do with Arafat's decision to wage war on Israel six months later?) October 2000 In a speech to the United Nations on October 30th, Archbishop Renato Martino declared: "The "unique character" of Jerusalem as a city sacred to three great religions makes it essential that religious leaders, not politicians, control the holy sites." In his meeting on October 26th with Lebanese Ambassador to the Vatican, Fouad Aoun, Pope John Paul 11 said that the city of Jerusalem should be given "specially guaranteed international status." January 2001 Israel TV journalists secretly film under the Shrine Of Omar, the 7th century Islamic building which may have been deliberately constructed over the Holy of Holies, them most sacred prayer room of the ancient Jewish Temple. The video revealed a new and massive tunnel aimed directly at the most sacred core of Solomon's and later, Herod's Temples. During the Crusades the early 12th century chivalric order, The Knights Templer, dug under the ruins for nine years and found a network of tunnels where the Jewish priests hid their treasures form the marauding Romans in 70 CE. It was also assumed that the original records of the Jerusalem Church which prove that the Vatican was not practicing Christianity as its founders had intended, was buried in this spot. A pope with exclusive rights of divine interpretation was not part of G-d's plan. If these scrolls were made public they would jeopardize Rome's legitimacy. Thus it is imperative to The Vatican that the Jews be removed from the Temple Mount so that they don't find these important scrolls. The PA is serving as the Vatican's "building contractors" in this arrangement in the hope that the Vatican will side with the Palestinians in the conflict with Israel. July 2002 Israeli, US and German delegations at the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe in Berlin have to fight a surprise proposal to internationalize Jerusalem's Old City by the Italian delegation to the meeting. The head of the Italian delegation told Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the US-based Simon Weisenthal Center, that the main concern of the Italian government was that "in the future when there are peace discussions, the Palestinian entity will be given control of the Christian Holy sites." Why the secular government of Italy should be worried about this was not explained in the new item. (The Jerusalem Post, July 8th, 2002) So What Is The Vatican Planning And What Can Israeli Jews Do About It? For centuries the Vatican has been pushing its "replacement" doctrine which states that the Catholic has replaced Israel as "the New Israel". The Roman Catholic Church wants Israel to lose sovereign control over the Old City of Jerusalem so that "the promises to the literal descendents of Abraham will be applied to the 'New Jerusalem.'" If Israel controls Jerusalem it is evidence that Rome's claims are not legitimate and that the literal interpretation of Scriptures is correct. There is no place for the restoration of the nation of Israel in its theology. How can the Vatican claim to be "the New Jerusalem" and "rightful heir to the Kingdom of God" if the Jews control Jerusalem? How is the Catholic Church going to convince the world that their version of theology is correct? The Vatican is going to have everyone believe this "mysterious individual who will "unite the faiths" and appear in Jerusalem which will be under the control of an authority headed by The Vatican. " That deal to have the Vatican come into Israel and take over these properties and to "control and dominate the Old City of Jerusalem" already exists and has been fully documented and reported in the world's media. The end goal of The Vatican is to seize control of the Old City of Jerusalem out of the clutches of the state of Israel. To that end they have a secret agreement with Israel which obliges Israel to respect the "extraterritorial" claim to their physical presence in the city. In short, "we have accepted the Vatican's rights to have little Vatican sovereign embassies throughout our eternal capital of Jerusalem. That same Vatican has committed itself, in public and in a written agreement, to ensure that the Palestinians have sovereignty in the Old City of Jerusalem. The public record shows a secret deal has already been conducted behind the backs of the Israeli public whereby the Vatican was promised to take over the Old City. There is ample proof in the public record to prove that a secret deal was done with the Vatican by two Israeli government representatives, Yossi Beilin and Shimon Peres. As it was concocted covertly it can't serve the Israeli public- but someone else. Thus these agreements need to be made void and nullified. It doesn't matter if religious Jews or Israelis think that "Catholic theology" is "strange looking" or extremely "ritualistic." What matters is that all Israelis understand that The Vatican has a secret agenda and it includes stealing the Old City of Jerusalem away from the Jews. That is what you need to know and understand. Unfortunately, this agenda is being carried out in secret and behind your back and that is why you are ignorant of its true aims. The purpose of this essay is to warn you of these exact intentions of The Vatican so that you will be an "informed consumer" when it comes to Israel's relations with the Roman Catholic Church. Even the overt clauses of the Vatican agreement, the exchange of ambassadors and the opening of the Vatican archives to Israeli researchers, have not been fulfilled by The Vatican. From an Israeli perspective, the "Fundamental Agreement Between The Holy See and The State of Israel" has been a complete failure and should be immediately rescinded. http://www.joelbainerman.com/articles/vatican.asp Rev. |
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djermano
Somewherein, China
Most RecentMost Recommended Comments (28)
at 22:14 on September 6th, 2008
Thanks for your checker mettacara......I do believe Palestine has everything to gain by becoming a Religious Branch to the Vatican, which would include the ability to renounce arms, in favor of Nonviolence. The Palestinians would not be required to pay Israeli taxes which supports their military. The defining creditability will reset between an Israeli Religious State that uses a military and accepts Violent practice in comparison to a Palestinian Religious Order Corban that renounces a military and violence via the blessing of the Catholic Church.
at 05:11 on September 7th, 2008
djermano, I like this story. It's good stuff.
at 06:40 on September 7th, 2008
I find it interesting that the Dalai Lama just recently was in Jordan attending an event with other Noble Peace prize recipients. Quote from the Jerusalem Post Friday edition of UpFront. He was sitting next to a young Israeli women and the following was reported by her. " The Dalai Lama -with a very deep and kind gaze- looked into my eyes and held my palm in both of his warm hands. The last thing I told him was how I believed that if more world leaders would act as he does, the world would be a different place. As a response, he streched his neck back as he often does, let out a great laugh and answered, "If more world leaders were like me, the world wouldn't exist!"
Now that's honesty!
at 06:54 on September 7th, 2008
May I remind my fellow citizen journalist djermanjo that until you can separate your preconceived ideas about Israel you will never be able to step back and see the entire drama unfold here in the Middle East. There will never be peace here if the Palestinian leadership wants all of the land from the Jordan to the Sea. Not the pre-67 borders but the entire pre-47 demarcations. Under this reality there will never be a compromised agreement.
What may happen is that Israeli citizens may be encouraged to leave most of the settlements unilaterally. Under this approach already in discussion only the army will have some presence there for security purposes. Or until some kind of agreement can be arranged.
I also find it interesting that you do not identify your exact location in China. Is that due to the threat by authorities?
Yours in Peace
Steve
at 06:55 on September 7th, 2008
djermano, I like this story. It's good stuff.
at 17:42 on September 7th, 2008
I totally agree tikun, I can not see an end to this struggle for land in Israel it shows religion at its worst and its a total political mess of the worst kind.
I suspect the reverent lives on the borders Chinese and Russia Mongolia , its against the law in China to convert Chinese citizens to Christians. All tourists are warned when applying for visa's and at border crossings. However there is freedom I believe still in Hong Kong and maybe in Taiwan to do missionary work. Christians would need to work deeply underground as the Chinese are very strict about this. All foreigners are watched, though life in China has changed and the people have much more freedom, the authorities are still very strict. Like you I am surprized we have a member who is a reverant living in China and seemingly active in Christian missionary activity? How ever living on the Russian Chinese border maybe a lot safer to practise Christianity?
at 17:59 on September 7th, 2008
djermano, The struggle will never cease it does not matter whom controls the holy city the problem is Zionism and centuries of religious history and religious vendettas. Not so long ago I wrote a article that explains a lot about the Israel Arab struggles.
http://www.nowpublic.com/opinions/medinat-yisrael-jewish-problem
The pope can not solve this problem.
at 19:52 on September 7th, 2008
I do have faith that if the Palestinians take this religious route with the Catholic Church support, that it will help ease the tension in the region, and bring back to the people some sensibility. One needs to consider how this conflict unresolved is shown across the world stage....especially Chna who says and see this spectacle of violence for so many years as a validation to their ideas that religion is a farce in the world. Who is responsible for this? And yet people blame China for human rights abuses? I really tend to disagree. When Israel and Palestine stop the fighting then I think the rest of the world will find that religion is legitimate. Palestine has everything to gain by becoming a religion because their identity becomes more global, and people outside Palestine will join their organization. This means greater power for Palestine. Israel will have to take further notice to their false military apparatus in enforcing its Religious State.
Rev. Jermano
at 22:48 on September 7th, 2008
First of all Israel is NOT a religious state. That is a LIE. Also, the Palestinian - Israeli conflict is NOT of global importance in spite of what you may want others to believe. I also find it interesting that you actually are trying to make a case that China is not a human rights abuser. On What planet are you living ? You still have not addressed the "somewhere in China" bit. I think that your Christian prejudices against Israel/Jews is starting to surface. I think Yehoshua would be pretty upset trashing HIS people.
at 01:48 on September 8th, 2008
Ok Tikun then why is it controlled only by Jews? The Israeli Palestinian issue may not be a global importance, but there sure is a lot of violence there that is suppose to be where Religion began in the Holy Land. The reflection to the world is to disregard any significance to Religion....if Religion is all about violence. And China sees this and certainly confirms in their mind the reasons why they don't allow that kind of religion in China.
I find China to do many good things for the people. Of course I stand up for that. I find America has many human rights abuses....with its daily statistics of crime upon crime upon crime. 911 is not a human rights abuse? I did address the reason about where I am....I told you would not believe me anyway to where I am, so why make an issue of it? What matter does it make where I am?
You are right my prejudices are against violence...and if Christians and Jews do that what do you expect me to relate? Happy Violence Day? Be real. On the contrary the Lord is happy I am helping to stop the people trashing themselves with violence.
Have a good one...
Rev. Jermano
God Bless
at 06:03 on September 8th, 2008
I find it very interesting that you know what the lord likes and dislikes. I wonder if you have a direct pipe line to the truth. Israel is a Jewish State. Get used to it. You don't have to like it or want it but it is a fact. Yes, we have minorities that are full citizens afforded all rights and privileges. Where is the violence(a lot) according to your report by or in Israel. There is more internal Palestinian violence then any in the conflict between the two sides. I think that you confuse Jews as meaning religious. I find that actually humorous and ignorant of the real situation on the ground. There is much contact between Palestinians and Israelis regarding getting along in business and commerce. Peacefully I might remind you. But being in China it is difficult to get a first hand look.
I will not even seriously take your comments about a peaceful China. Falon Gong adherents jailed, beaten, killed, eliminated. Does that sound like peaceful? Religion means realization. Your take on religion is understandable through all the centuries of killing by Christians and Moslems in the name of God. Non-Violence is a inner experience. No preaching is going to change that fact. Until the inner directed experience of the vastness of the lit up being is an everyday occurance violence will be a part of global destruction.
at 20:53 on September 8th, 2008
I would like to know who I am talking to because it seems I get two different answers here.
1st you say: First of all Israel is NOT a religious state
2nd you say: Israel is a Jewish State. Get used to it.
Most folks consider Jewish as a religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew
I never said I didn't like it, nor did I consider I had to get used to it.
And so you say things are so peaceful in Israel....but I wonder how that is when there is a big wall that divides the land in keeping people out?
The point I am making is that the problems in the Middle East have been going on for a very long time, and people do not consider how that reflects toward the the rest of the world,or toward the scope of religion itself. Why would anyone want to be a Jew or any religion that practices there since it is the Holy Land where religion is suppose to aspire to beginning.
Falon Gong I have to admit I don't know much about...but certainly it is a recent problem, unlike the comparison to the ongoing Israeli Palestine conflict.
you said: Non-Violence is a inner experience. No preaching is going to change that fact. Until the inner directed experience of the vastness of the lit up being is an everyday occurance violence will be a part of global destruction.
But I think Nonviolence can be an outer experience...it fact it is necessary. And destruction around the globe can be stopped...What benefit is there for Violence? Do you admit Israel prefers violence instead of Nonviolence? Do you think Palestinians prefer violence instead of Nonviolence?
What is your view to the right of Israel taking Palestinian lands?
Rev. Jermano
at 06:37 on September 9th, 2008
Hi Rev. Jermano,
There is no doubt that this area is a very special energy center.
No I would have to politely disagree that Israel prefers violence over non-violence. Israel, the people and the leadership long for a peaceful existence with the neighbors. But easier said then done. The complexity of the situation here and the numerous cross currents and political interference by foreign powers make a stable situation almost impossible. All that said, the "wall", by the way is almost 90% a see through fence.The actual wall ,solid concrete starts around the Jerusalem area. The fence/wall has actually prevented terrorists from infiltrating into Israel proper and has saved lives on both sides. This is only a stop-gap situation that allows both sides to live and let live as best as the circumstance will allow. Not perfect but peaceful.
My view about the LAND. HMM. that is a complex situation. If we can for one minute put aside the propaganda from the truth then maybe I will be able to present a few explanations on the situation. 1) after the 6 day war Israel took over the West Bank, Jordanian land and Gaza, Egyptian land. There wasn't any Palestinian people as such. That is the truth. Not what the propagandists have successfully conveyed. However, that said, I believe that all the the settlements outside the Jeruaslem area and in the Gush Etzion region, formally Jewish owned real estate before the 1948 war, needs to be returned by Israel. Which for the most part the majority of Israelis agree. A narrative has been formed successfully by the Arabs that there has been a Palestinian People for ages. This just isn't so, period.
I believe that if the Palestinian leadership will give up the desire for a country that includes all of Israel then we have a chance at peace. There are people on both sides that are working hard to come to a compromise that works for both sides.
Violence works in this part of town. The stronger you are the more violence reflects this macho mentality. There is a cultural divide that can be seen globally that needs to be enlightened but will take time and hard work for the greater population to see value in it. Fear through intimidation in Gaza and the West Bank remains a serious problem along with intense corruption making the inhabitants wary of considering support for any relationship with Israel. Fear works.
at 22:34 on September 10th, 2008
Thanks for your reply tikun. And I agree with what you said:
I believe that if the Palestinian leadership will give up the desire for a country that includes all of Israel then we have a chance at peace. There are people on both sides that are working hard to come to a compromise that works for both sides.
I do not support Palestine to have a State, but instead to become a Religious Corban Territory. This would have many significant benefits than reaching toward statehood for Palestine. 1st it keeps Israel on the defensive because Israel being the State will have to make legitimate its State-hood directives in making its Democracy real. Presently they do not allow Palestinians to become citizens of Israel because they fear the loss of their majority....This would spell an end to Jews running Israel. So the problem is seen more on the Israeli side I think than on Palestine. Israel needs to prove to the world it is a legitimate democracy, or not a democracy.
Palestine if it takes up the roll as a Religious enclave to the Vatican will not have to deal with weapons acquisition or setting up a military command as Arafat proved to be his ultimate downfall. All the Palestinians need to do is work to end the violence within their own ranks and then press for Israel to achieve real democracy.
at 21:09 on September 10th, 2008
Israel does not have to prove anything to anyone. Israel will never meet your personal standards. What is "real" Democracy? This appears to be your personal take. Israel is one of the most open societies on earth. We spare no one nor any situation from public examination. YOU must be better informed before you make statements about a country and people that it appears you know very little.
at 21:19 on September 10th, 2008
djermano, I like this story. It's good stuff.
at 22:41 on September 10th, 2008
Israel has been committing crimes against Humanity and crimes of War. It is only open to Israelis not to Arabs nor to other non Jews, it is a secular and apartheid regime, South Africa's President has even called it such and expressed his outrage that the World community does still tolerate and support this state as is.
at 22:40 on September 10th, 2008
Thanks Paschen. That is Israels problem to not have to prove anything. That shows irresponsibility. They only have to protect their state power, by means of force and walls, and if it means to break ideas of Democracy so be it. Funny thing Mugabe of Zimbabwe is accused of similar crimes as Israel, but if Israel can get away with it, how is Mugabe any different? You see when we don't not stand up to real democracy not only does the country fail but other countries see how they can break rules too.
at 09:58 on September 11th, 2008
Djermano,
said". Funny thing Mugabe of Zimbabwe is accused of similar crimes as Israel, but if Israel can get away with it, how is Mugabe any different? You see when we don't not stand up to real democracy not only does the country fail but other countries see how they can break rules too."
This is a sick statement and only foolish prejudice of Jews/Israel makes this kind of stupid disregard for the truth. I will not dignify any further discussion with you on any topic in the future. You are a bigot and not an honest human being. You profess non-violence but your words are violent and contrived. You regurgitate old lies and a narrative that has been prooven to be just plain BS. You quote from dubious sources that have never been friendly or fair to Israel as the arbiters of honesty and truth. Fools gold. This kind of blatant gibberish and insane statements only makes nowpublic part and parcel with some of the other sick web sited that allow this kind of sick folks expressing not honest dialogue but outtright lies and distortions. You should be ashamed of yourself. Somewhere in China. Ha
at 10:22 on September 11th, 2008
You never answer the questions I raise, so how can I take you as a worthwhile commenter. It is true Israel refuses to allow the Palestinians in the Israel because they know Palestinians outnumber them. They would lose control of the govenment....because of fear of the unknown. So instead they use fear by blocking the roads of Democracy and blame the world around them.....as terrorists, communists, dictators, and oppressors....in fact it's really you.
at 14:08 on September 11th, 2008
You ass hole. You are a degenerate liar. Fact. period .end of story.
at 16:51 on September 11th, 2008
Tikun I might remind you about personal attacks.....but can I expect a difference from someone from Israel? It is rather part of the Israeli culture when in disagreement to degrade the truth and attack the messenger. Heck the problem in Israel has been going on since the days of Harry Truman. I have more faith in Zimbabwe to reach a concensus of truth and working out problems instead of the continued same entrenched hatred that Israel permeates to the world......as if follow our Religious Right to Kill, Murder, and Steal Land, and keep out the majority. Israel is truely an Isolationist 3 rd world country..
The problem is afterall the fear of Israel losing control of its democracy in fear of losing the majority, and so we can also see this same thing happening in the USA....when power elites who have no majority use weapons of mass destruction to intimidate and coerce the people toward backing away from true freedom and democracy.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080911/ts_nm/zimbabwe_crisis_dc;_ylt=AtIRoSMa40iVXiXN2VDwjWh34T0D
at 22:20 on September 11th, 2008
The problem is your anti-Semitic prospective and your Christian warped anti-Jewish distortions that have caused endless bloodshed through out the ages. You are in no position to preach anything about peace when YOU have blood on your hands dripping from all the pain and suffering you have caused through out the world. In China to convert the natives to what? A fools gold. Shame on you. No wonder you are no where in China instead of some where. They didn't ask you to come and show them the "light".
at 22:46 on September 11th, 2008
I disagree.tikun...get off the anti semitic stuff...I questioned you about Israel blocking Arabs to be part of Israeli Government and because of it I am anti-semitic....Furthest from the truth there. Instead of allowing a real democracy to take shape in Israel....you people start the hype of Palestine needing to have its own state.....To me that makes yourself anti-semitic, because you want to dominate all the issues that have to concern Israel....Arabs and lot's of people have that right to determine Israel..Your solution....kick the Palestinians out...call them anti-semitic, and we Israelis remain in power... Not real Tikun..
No one said I was preaching to them, and yes they did ask me to come. And no I am no light.....I am nothing without the Lord's radiant mega watts.
Rev. Jermano
God Bless
at 23:04 on September 11th, 2008
How do you know what the "Lord" wants. In this part of the world we call that "Chutzpa".
No one blocks anyone from being involved in government in Israel. You may not want a Jewish State and this we can disagree on but I can see fully that you have never been here otherwise you would not be saying the things you have been. It shows clear ignorance and lack of DIRECT experience. My experience of the "radiant one" clearly shows me that you are speaking out with a political agenda that involves the destruction of my people on a tiny piece of land that we have been endlessly a part of. BTW, It is always interesting that the only country anyone would think should not exist is the Jewish State. how peculiar.
I think this thread has been exhausted.
at 23:49 on September 11th, 2008
The Lord wants Nonviolence tikun....and I am not against Jews. So why isn't there the Catholic State, the Mormon State, the Baptist State, the Holy State? The Jews got their State from Harry Truman, because he had a big bomb that said so....Why is it States are founded upon by force? I think if Israel gave up it's State on the basis of force, it would find its real new State called Nonviolent State....and it would bloom far greater to incude in Israel and Jerusalem. I do not advocate the termination of the Jews, no more than blacks, or Muslims. What I do advocate is the termination of violence.
Yes I have never been to Israel, only all my hard earned money goes there....and what do I get for giving my money to Israel? Nothing but Violence. Not a fair shake I think.
Instead of using the word Ignorance....you can use the word unaware.....because ignorant people are those who are aware, and still do the stupid bad things. I am not Ignorant.
God is the light of the world....I speak from a Nonviolent Agenda that is not Political or Religious. Those ideas Political and Religious just don't work
That is not true that people only think the Jewish State should not exist. Many people didn't like Russia, but they changed, lot's of people don't like China, America, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, and many others....it is not always about Israel you know....
Rev. Jermano
God Bless
at 02:00 on September 12th, 2008
Rev. Jermano,
However, no one advocates that these other states be wiped off the map. There are already plenty of Catholic states. Israel is the only place Jews can go that will protect them from the bigotry of Christianity and Islam. We have done pretty well in China and other Asian countries over the years. BTW, the big ten commandments does not say anything about non-violence. It says not to commit Murder. Big difference then "not to kill". Many wrongly translate it. You really do need to understand the difference. I know of no one that advocates violence here. I have never done this before but maybe you need to read this from the International Tribune, owned by the NY times corporation.
International Herald Tribune <http://www.iht.com>
A West Bank ruin, reborn as a peace beacon
By Ethan Bronner
Friday, September 12, 2008
*JENIN, West Bank:* Pessimism is a steady companion these days for advocates of Middle East peace. A lame-duck Israeli government is negotiating with a weak Palestinian leadership in the twilight of an unpopular American administration. Few forecast success.
But a quiet revolution is stirring here in this city, once a byword for the extremes of violence between Israelis and Palestinians. In 2002, in response to a wave of suicide bombers from Jenin, Israeli tanks leveled entire neighborhoods.
From that rubble, now newly trained and equipped Palestinian security officials have restored order. Israeli soldiers have pulled back from bases and are in close touch with their Palestinian colleagues. Civilians are planning economic cooperation ? an industrial zone to provide thousands of jobs, mostly to Palestinians, and another involving organic produce grown by Palestinians and marketed in Europe by Israelis. Ministers from both governments have been visiting regularly, often joined by top international officials. Israeli Arabs are playing a key role.
The aim is to stand conventional wisdom on its head. Instead of a shaky negotiated peace treaty imposing coexistence from the top down, a bottom-up set of relationships that lock the two societies together should, proponents argue, lead to a real two-state solution.
"We got a clear American message that the Palestinian state will start from Jenin," asserted Colonel Radi Asideh, the deputy commander of the Palestinian security forces here who have recently received new Land Rovers and AK-47 assault rifles. "The plan is to have a security model that can then be implemented all over Palestine."
Those may sound like the hopeful words of a credulous officer. But here is General James Jones, special American envoy to the region in an interview this week after visiting Jenin: "I see this as a kind of dress rehearsal for statehood, a crucible where the two sides can prove things to each other."
And Ehud Barak, Israel's defense minister, in an interview in his Tel Aviv office, said: "So far, Jenin is a great success. The Palestinian police have created a different mood there. We need to see money being poured into projects now to keep the momentum going. If done right, we think this could become an example."
As one Western official involved in the plan noted, Israeli defense officials do not make a habit of speaking well of Palestinian police, so Barak's words are telling. Still, Barak's last point is also crucial because, unsurprisingly, not everyone agrees on what it means to do it right. Each side in the triangle ? Israelis, Palestinians, international donors and facilitators ? argues that it has done its part but that things are moving too slowly because of the others. Israel says Palestinian forces still do not deal with terrorists and so its forces must continue night incursions. Palestinians worry that the focus on Jenin will take away from the broader issues that need to be solved, like Jerusalem and refugees. The likelihood of failure still far outweighs that of success.
The choice of Jenin as a model might seem strange given the level of violence that emanated from here in the years of the second Palestinian intifada, or uprising. Since then, the city and region of Jenin have been severely economically depressed and chaotic.
Until late last year, for example, armed militia men used the hospital as a dormitory. Gunfire in the streets was common. One day, Colonel Asideh recounted, when militia paychecks failed to arrive, gunmen pumped bullets into four of the local ATMs, causing hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage.
Today, such men have given up their arms and the police walk the beat in this town. The hospital has been refurbished with American aid. Shops downtown stay open late. People feel they can breathe.
Jenin, officials on all sides say, offers many advantages for a pilot project, an idea arrived at by American and European officials in February when they sought ways to build peace on the ground.
First, they said, Hamas, the main Palestinian militant opposition in the West Bank, is relatively weak in Jenin. Second, after the evacuation of four Israeli settlements in the region in 2005, the area is essentially free of settlers, a major source of friction elsewhere. Third, the barrier that Israel has been building causes little friction in this area because it is right on the boundary between Israel and the West Bank, not over it so there is little territorial dispute.
There is also a fourth reason. Gilboa, the Israeli region that abuts Jenin, is an unusual and unusually well-suited neighbor. Small and rural with 30,000 people, it is 40 percent Arab and 60 percent Jewish and the inhabitants have worked assiduously to create their own kind of model ? of Arab-Jewish coexistence in Israel.
An example was on display last month when high school students in Gilboa took part in what may be the only one of its kind in the world ? the finals for the Bible-Koran contest. Twelve teams, each made up of one Jew and one Arab, were asked questions in both Hebrew and Arabic about the holy books. A mixed team of Jewish and Muslim teachers acted as judges. An Israeli Arab was the master of ceremonies.
Isaac Herzog, Israel's minister of social welfare, was on hand and told the audience that Gilboa was a model for Israel, that every Israeli Jew should learn the Koran, that equality of opportunity should be the norm.
The head of the Gilboa regional council, Daniel Atar, is a Jew and his deputy, Eid Salem, is an Arab. Together they have built a warm relationship with the Palestinian governor of the Jenin area, Qadoura Moussa. The three meet frequently to formulate plans for economic cooperation in agriculture and commerce. Together, they have visited the French-German border area and Switzerland, seeking models of coexistence.
"There are two kinds of peace," Atar said one recent afternoon in his office with Salem at his side. "There is the one on a piece of paper that doesn't stand up to any test and there is the one built from the bottom up. That is the one we are hoping to build. It is increasingly clear that if Israeli Jews cannot figure out how to have good relations with Israeli Arabs, there won't be peace beyond the borders, either. We have a choice in Israel of making peace or living in a bunker."
One result of the discussions among the three leaders is a decision by the Israeli authorities to allow some Israeli Arabs into Jenin on a daily basis for the first time since the intifada. It has been a delicate move made with little fanfare because in principle it is illegal to allow certain Israeli citizens to do something others may not and also because movement across the boundary invites the possibility of security breaches.
It is delicate for another reason. In recent years, Israeli Jews have grown worried that among the 1.3 million Arabs who are Israeli citizens, there is a growing radicalization and identification with the Palestinian national cause and militant Islam. Increasing their contact with the West Bank could add to those concerns.
But Israeli Arabs have relatives here and want to do business here, and the Israeli authorities say they want to encourage that as a means of helping the Palestinian economy. If Israeli Arabs are permitted to do that in large numbers, that could represent an important change in their status in the eyes of Israeli Jews ? from potential fifth column to bridge builder.
There are small signs of it already. Inside the Jenin refugee camp, a tough neighborhood of 16,000 inhabitants that is inside the city of Jenin, Fadi Abu Hijab, 27, owns a new sewing workshop with half a dozen employees. They make clothes on order from shops in Tel Aviv, he said, and Israeli Arabs are the brokers who come to deliver the material and pick up the finished products.
In addition, the university here has 80 Israeli Arab students and is working to attract several hundred more. The Israeli authorities have taken other steps ? removing key checkpoints so that movement around Jenin is easier, granting VIP checkpoint passes to about 1,500 Palestinian officials and businessmen, issuing work visas to some here, and agreeing on the building of new police stations, courthouses, schools and jails.
For anyone who remembers the Gilboa-Jenin boundary area a decade ago, however, all of the incipient changes seem minor. Until the 2000 uprising, thousands of Israelis ? Jews and Arabs ? shopped here regularly in their cars. Thousands of Palestinians from here worked in Israel. The industrial zone now being planned by Tony Blair ? the international community's envoy to build Palestinian institutions ? and talked about as a major breakthrough, was supposed to be built then.
Today the main crossing point, then the site of a sprawling market, is a maze of security towers and checkpoints. Israeli soldiers refrain from cruising Jenin by day but still carry out occasional night raids and maintain overall security control of the region. And while Israeli Arabs are now being let in, they may not yet bring cars, greatly limiting the appeal of the trip and the shopping.
There are other concerns. The Palestinians have asked to base their newly trained battalion for Jenin in an abandoned Israeli settlement, a good spot in terms of location and infrastructure. But Israeli officials are worried about how it will play in Israel and have so far said no.
Israeli security officials say their Palestinian colleagues are good at law and order but not at stopping terrorist groups. They say that Islamic Jihad used to be strong here and is no longer because Israel spent years destroying its infrastructure and killing its militants, setting the stage for the Palestinian security takeover. But if they relax their vigilance, the Israelis say, the situation will deteriorate. Early on Wednesday morning, for example, Israeli soldiers and security men raided a home in Jenin and detonated a 30-pound pipe bomb.
The Palestinians complain that they are often urged to arrest someone just because he wears a beard. They add that as long as they are seen as puppets of the Israelis, the project is doomed. The key is for Palestinian security officials to be seen as agents of state building. Then the population will cooperate. This requires the kind of discretion that the Israeli Army has not been known for.
"The intifada turned them into enemies in one day," Blair said in an interview. "Now we are trying to recreate a sense of mutual confidence after seven years. It is a very slow process. But what is happening in Gilboa and Jenin is exactly the direction we would like to go."
at 22:55 on September 14th, 2008
Thanks Tikun, you said....BTW, the big ten commandments does not say anything about non-violence.
You are absolutely right...The bible and 10 commandments say nothing about Nonviolence, yet more often than not its example is expressed. I have problems with said statements by the Lord in Luke 19: 27 where he says bring his enemies hither so they may slay them...Here he advocates violence....I find the bible quite hypocritical if not outright scandalous in parts...All the good to say a few words of the opposite brings truth to where?
So I do not always foloow the Bible....In fact I follow greater measures that go beyond biblical guidance,,,and is why I have been on this Nonviolence Crusade.....Just because the Bible says nothing about it, does not mean it is not necessary....I like China because they claim to be anti-religious....and I can understand why.....but I also see them do things that are more christlike acts in doing good.....than the so called christian nations such as the USA.
God Bless.
Rev. Jermano