Certain Aspects Of Sharia Law To Be Legalised By Man

by Sputnic | October 26, 2008 at 01:26 am
304 views | 5 Recommendations | 13 comments

The greatest gift it is possible to give is to forgive one that has wronged you. So it says in the Quran, in the same chapter that deals with the law and punishment for crimes such as adultery. It is legal to get divorced in Islam, for all the terrible cases of public stoning that come to our attention there are probably many more divorces, often, I am sad to say, and ashamed to admit, among the rich. Mans justice doesnt come cheap anywhere but we will all be judged equally by God. As regards family law, the aspect that is due to be regarded as binding in Uk courts, on first appearance certain aspects can be seen to favour the man. In financial terms the male gets around 33 percent more than the female (two thirds not half) but he has to financially support the children completely out of that money. If he wants to remarry he has to pay a dowry. Misunderstood Gods law is good.

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Babel-Fish
Babel-Fish
flagged this story as Good Stuff

at 04:02 on October 26th, 2008

Sputnic, I like debating on Islamic issues.

Not many Muslims divorce a wife because of two reasons the first is the bad view other muslims will take on such an issue. The other is why divorce is frowned on, a good muslim does not divorce because the wife will need to live on her own resources and may end up in poverty and die of starvation on the streets.

Other male muslims will not normally marry and care for a non virgin, there are exeptions the husbands brother or a near relative can be asked to marry the ex-wife, but its seldom that the husband can find someone to take that responsibility.

The normal thing is that the husband looks after number one wife and marries another woman, he is obligated to treat both women respectfully the second wife is his pride and joy but if he buys her a present etc he is obligated to buy the same gift for number one wife.

Its normal for the first wife to run the household but to try stay out of site from the husband unless invited.

The problem is that the husband must be able to afford two wives before he marries a second then three wifes if he needs to marry a third.

Normally the less wealthy Muslim is stuck with wife number one if a near relative does not want her. Muslims normal wish to only have one wife and try to chose very carefully.

When I hear non Muslims joke and state they want to change their faith as they want three wives, I smile knowingly, lol 

 

 

 

  

 

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Sputnic

Thanks Bablefish, of course everything you say here is true but those circumstances of divorce are cultural as opposed to religious, think of the cricketer and politition Imran Khan and his ex wife Jemmima Goldsmith

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Sputnic

Thanks Bablefish, of course everything you say here is true but those circumstances of divorce are cultural as opposed to religious, think of the cricketer and politition Imran Khan and his ex wife Jemmima Goldsmith

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Babel-Fish

Jemmima can easily get married again as she can leave the muslim culture and enter the western culture this would not of course be frown on by Imran Khan's Muslim peers as she will never end up in poverty. However a muslim would think twice in marrying Jemmima so she better look for a guy that is definatly not Muslim. Money does make a difference but the culture of the religion that relates the virgin thing is normally like a solid brick wall.

Though rich Muslims have been known to break the virgin rule. But as my good muslim friend say its human to forgive and I personally think forgiving shows how human and civilized one really is. It sometimes the most hardest thing to do, Jesus Christ the great Philospher (I am an athiest) quoted "Turn the other cheek" I certainly wished more people would read his quote and let the words sink in, the world would be a better place.

By the way a great human and great Philospher broke his own advice and that was Muhammad for he had more wifes than the limit he suggested. Of course he was human and should be forgiven and is by all of those that believe he is the great prophet. Of course I should be forgiven for questioning the acts of the great Prophet as I am not Muslim and I am human.

Peace be with you...

  

  

1
Sputnic

Many people worship God alone, or believe there to be only one God but dont refer to themselves as muslim. Prophet mohammed was a special case being a prophet and it is worth remembering that there were a shortage of men at the time due to the wars that were going on. I read a comment of yours in which you said your mother was jewish and your dad a christian and that you chose your mothers religion, but now you say you are atheist? It would be wrong to blame God for the evil that men (and women) do. I made that mistake myself.

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Babel-Fish

 Prophet mohammed was a special case being a prophet and it is worth remembering that there were a shortage of men at the time due to the wars that were going on."No that's a poor excuse, one can not escuse the great prophet in such away one can forgive him as he was human like you or me, he enjoyed his wives and because he was rich he could afford many, his suggestions of limiting wives was to my mind sensible and setting a bunch of good rules such as treat each wife the same.  He realised in great wisdom that those men that could afford a wife needed to tighten their belts to afford more and of course the muslim women needed the rights of being secure in their finacial support. That Muslim men needed to be respectful to women and a responsibility to be able to afford the up keep of a extra wife if the first or second where not agreeable to his needs as a husband. The limits of the number of wives was set to what the average very successfull business man could afford.  

The great Prophet was more than very successful he was a very rich religous leader of whom I expect could afford more wifes than he really had, we must not invent excuses for his actions as those action where a cultural based thing. That very rich Arabs used to do prior to the introduction of Islam in fact some continued this avenue of having many wifes and concubines after the introduction of Islam.

In the case of shortage of men due to war, yes muslims did take the wifes of dead brothers cousins and relatives into their households but this was not the reason for Muhammad having many wifes, he did so because of Arab tradition thats what rich arab business men and great leaders did. Muhammad needs no excuses he was the one that set the way to a sensible caring muslim law for his subjects and the followers of a new faith. I expect at that time there where other rich Muslim men that had more than the suggested quota and those wifes all shared his bed as and when required.

As to my religion change it was a decision to admit to being of Jewish decent shortly after the death of my mother and not one of religious conviction. I actually became an athiest after reading and studying many of the holy books to include the Koran. One verse in the torah and repeated in the old testiments of the bible made me change my mind. I blame men and women for the evil they do and religion for allowing them to repent sins, going in the temple as dirty linen and coming out thinking they are clean, many of those that pray on a mat seemingly think its the laundry of the soul.

Benedict de Spinoza  the absolute philosopher stated...

Encapsulated at the start in his Treatise on the Improvement of the Understanding (Tractatus de intellectus emendatione) is the core of Spinoza's ethical philosophy, what he held to be the true and final good. Spinoza held a relativist's position, that nothing is intrinsically good or bad, except to the extent that it is subjectively perceived to be by the individual. Things are only good or evil in respect that humanity sees it desirable to apply these conceptions to matters. Instead, Spinoza believes in his deterministic universe that, "All things in nature proceed from certain necessity and with the utmost perfection." Therefore, nothing happens by chance in Spinoza's world, and reason does not work in terms of contingency.

In the universe anything that happens comes from the essential nature of objects, or of God/Nature. According to Spinoza, reality is perfection. If circumstances are seen as unfortunate it is only because of our inadequate conception of reality. While elements of the chain of cause and effect are not beyond the understanding of human reason, our grasp of the infinitely complex whole is limited because of the limits of science to empirically take account of the whole sequence. Spinoza also asserted that sense perception, though practical and useful for rhetoric, is inadequate for discovering universal truth; Spinoza's mathematical and logical approach to metaphysics, and therefore ethics, concluded that emotion is formed from inadequate understanding. His concept of "conatus" states that human beings' natural inclination is to strive toward preserving an essential being and an assertion that virtue/human power is defined by success in this preservation of being by the guidance of reason as one's central ethical doctrine. According to Spinoza, the highest virtue is the intellectual love or knowledge of God/Nature/Universe.

In the final part of the "Ethics" his concern with the meaning of "true blessedness" and his unique approach to and explanation of how emotions must be detached from external cause in order to master them presages 20th-century psychological techniques. His concept of three types of knowledge - opinion, reason, intuition - and assertion that intuitive knowledge provides the greatest satisfaction of mind, leads to his proposition that the more we are conscious of ourselves and Nature/Universe, the more perfect and blessed we are (in reality) and that only intuitive knowledge is eternal. His unique contribution to understanding the workings of mind is extraordinary, even during this time of radical philosophical developments, in that his views provide a bridge between religions' mystical past and psychology of the present day.

Given Spinoza's insistence on a completely ordered world where "necessity" reigns, Good and Evil have no absolute meaning. Human catastrophes, social injustices, etc. are merely apparent. The world as it exists looks imperfect only because of our limited perception.

As a weak atheist Spinoza thoughts and opinions fit into my square hole. That there is no law making God or Gods but there is a form of inteligence behind the universe and its nature. We are made out of the star dust the very stuff the matter and building blocks of the universe that makes us beings a part of the universe and part of the its total inteligence we can of course give that inteligence a name, yes God will do or shall we call it nature.

By and by one of the greatest genius of the world as ever new conserning the nature of the universe Albert Einstien was a follower of Spinoza's philosophy  

The question of scientific determinism gave rise to questions about Einstein's position on theological determinism, and whether or not he believed in a God. In 1929, Einstein told Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."[54] In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."[55] Einstein also stated: "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth." He is reported to have said in a conversation with Hubertus, Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg, "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."[56] Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."[57] In his book The World as I See It, he wrote: "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms—it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."[58]

In a 1930 New York Times article,[59] Einstein distinguished three styles which are usually intermixed in actual religion. The first is motivated by fear and poor understanding of causality, and hence invents supernatural beings. The second is social and moral, motivated by desire for love and support. Einstein noted that both have an anthropomorphic concept of God. The third style, which Einstein deemed most mature, is motivated by a deep sense of awe and mystery. He said, "The individual feels ... the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves in nature ... and he wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole." Einstein saw science as an antagonist of the first two styles of religion, but as a partner of the third style.

Einstein was also a Humanist and a supporter of Ethical Culture. He served on the advisory board of the First Humanist Society of New York.[60][61] For the seventy-fifth anniversary of the New York Society for Ethical Culture, he noted that the idea of Ethical Culture embodied his personal conception of what is most valuable and enduring in religious idealism. He observed, "Without 'ethical culture' there is no salvation for humanity."[62]

Einstein published a paper in Nature in 1940 entitled "Science and Religion"[63] in which he said that: "a person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings and aspirations to which he clings because of their super-personal value ... regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a Divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities. Accordingly a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance of those super-personal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation ... In this sense religion is the age-old endeavour of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals, and constantly to strengthen their effects." He argued that conflicts between science and religion "have all sprung from fatal errors." "[E]ven though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other" there are "strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies ... science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind ... a legitimate conflict between science and religion cannot exist." In Einstein's view, "neither the rule of human nor Divine Will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted ... by science, for [it] can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot." (Einstein 1940, pp. 605–607)

In a letter to Eric Gutkind in 1954 Einstein said: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."[64] In the same letter, Einstein rejected the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people: "For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."[64]

His friend Max Jammer explored Einstein's views on religion thoroughly in the 1999 book Einstein and Religion: Physics and Theology.[65]

I am no genius but I can see the logic thinking.  

"It would be wrong to blame God for the evil that men (and women) do. I made that mistake myself." I don't and I am sure that I am not mistaken

       

 

  

 

   

 

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Sputnic

Hi, prophet mohammed didnt make the rules God did. Prophet mohammed was not a rich man either he gave up the small amount of wealth he had when he was forced to migrate from mecca to medina. He had only one wife at the time of this migration. When mohammed died he left a donkey to his wife and a pair of sandals to his nephew. The prophet lived a very humble life and didnt go in for the trappings of wealth. Mohammed was offered riches by the pagans of mecca in return for abandoning monothesm, he refused and was forced to flee for his life. As regards atheist philosophy, "no good or bad" yes their are! Anyone with half a brain knows that. George Bush (both) knows that. Most genius's are very good at one thing but not fantastickly good at everything. Einstein was very good at maths (thanks to early muslim pioneers) but not much good at theology. How do you explain the scientific miracles? Did the universe of life speak! God isn't the universe, God made the universe.

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Sputnic

Duplicate

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Sputnic

Hi, prophet mohammed didnt make the rules God did. Prophet mohammed was not a rich man either he gave up the small amount of wealth he had when he was forced to migrate from mecca to medina. He had only one wife at the time of this migration. When mohammed died he left a donkey to his wife and a pair of sandals to his nephew. The prophet lived a very humble life and didnt go in for the trappings of wealth. Mohammed was offered riches by the pagans of mecca in return for abandoning monothesm, he refused and was forced to flee for his life. As regards atheist philosophy, "no good or bad" yes their are! Anyone with half a brain knows that. George Bush (both) knows that. Most genius's are very good at one thing but not fantastickly good at everything. Einstein was very good at maths (thanks to early muslim pioneers) but not much good at theology. How do you explain the scientific miracles? Did the universe of life speak! God isn't the universe, God made the universe.

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Babel-Fish

 No! he said the laws came from God, we have to believe that and many good followers do.

Nice story that I have heard before but te fact he had so many wifes he had to be able to afford them, Oh when you give a present to a wife the others have to be given the same present, thats a lot of donkeys, lol  

Muhammad's life history is well documented within numerous records in historical texts, although like other premodern historical figures not every detail of his life is known. Because Muhammad is a highly influential historical figure, his life, deeds, and thoughts have been debated by followers and opponents over the centuries, which makes a biography of him difficult to write.[14]

The "most trustworthy source" for reconstruction of the life of the historical Muhammad is the Qur'an.[14] The Qur'an has some, though very few, casual allusions to Muhammad's life,[23] however it reveals the most essential aspects associated with Muhammad.[19] The Qur'an however responds "constantly and often candidly to Muhammad's changing historical circumstances and contains a wealth of hidden data."[14] The Qur'an in its actual form is generally considered by academic scholars to record the words spoken by Muhammad because the search for variants in Western academia has not yielded any differences of great significance.[24]

Next in importance are the historical works by writers of the third and fourth century of the Muslim era.[25] These include the traditional Muslim biographies of Muhammad and quotes attributed to him (the sira and hadith literature), which provide further information on Muhammad's life.[26] The earliest surviving written sira (biographies of Muhammad and quotes attributed to him) is Ibn Ishaq's Life of God's Messenger written some 120 to 130 years after Muhammad's death. Although the original work is lost, portions of it survive in the recensions of Ibn Hisham and Al-Tabari.[27][23] Another early source is the history of Muhammad's campaigns by al-Waqidi (death 207 of Muslim era), and the work of his secretary Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi (death 230 of Muslim era).[25] Many, but not all, scholars accept the accuracy of the earliest biographies, though their accuracy is unascertainable.[23] Recent studies have led scholars to distinguish between the traditions touching legal matters and the purely historical ones. In the former sphere, traditions could have been subject to sheer invention while in the latter sphere, aside from exceptional cases, the material may have been only subject to "tendential shaping".[28]

In addition, the hadith collections are accounts of the verbal and physical traditions of Muhammad that date from several generations after the death of Muhammad.[29] Hadith compilations are records of the traditions or sayings of the Muhammad. They might be defined as the biography of Muhammad perpetuated by the long memory of his community for their exemplification and obedience.[30] Western academics view the hadith collections with caution as accurate historical sources.[31] Some scholars such as Madelung do not reject the narrations which have been complied in later periods, but try to judge them in the context of history and on the basis of their compatibility with the events and figures.[32] Finally, there are oral traditions. Although usually discounted by positivist historians, oral tradition plays a major role in the Islamic understanding of Muhammad.[19]

   

The athiest actualy do believe in good or bad those factors can be seen around them every day. Most atheist have very good minds they are like they are due to being free thinkers and not blocked by indoctrination that is of a mystic supernateral nature there has to be proof as magic does not exist.  I have yet to hear a criminal seek excuse as I am an athiest your honor so I don't know good from evil, lol 

Actually Einstien struggled with his conception of God and like me became a believer in Sponoza's God but I of course can not claim to be a genius just a free thinker. An entity or a enteligence behind the nature and birth of the universe but not a law making God or one that plays a good against evil game with man as the pawns.  Einsteins was not good with grammar or the spoken word  it was his only failing.

The question of scientific determinism gave rise to questions about Einstein's position on theological determinism, and whether or not he believed in a God. In 1929, Einstein told Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."[54] In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."[55] Einstein also stated: "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth." He is reported to have said in a conversation with Hubertus, Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg, "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."[56] Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."[57] In his book The World as I See It, he wrote: "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms—it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."[58]

In a 1930 New York Times article,[59] Einstein distinguished three styles which are usually intermixed in actual religion. The first is motivated by fear and poor understanding of causality, and hence invents supernatural beings. The second is social and moral, motivated by desire for love and support. Einstein noted that both have an anthropomorphic concept of God. The third style, which Einstein deemed most mature, is motivated by a deep sense of awe and mystery. He said, "The individual feels ... the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves in nature ... and he wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole." Einstein saw science as an antagonist of the first two styles of religion, but as a partner of the third style.

Einstein was also a Humanist and a supporter of Ethical Culture. He served on the advisory board of the First Humanist Society of New York.[60][61] For the seventy-fifth anniversary of the New York Society for Ethical Culture, he noted that the idea of Ethical Culture embodied his personal conception of what is most valuable and enduring in religious idealism. He observed, "Without 'ethical culture' there is no salvation for humanity."[62]

Einstein published a paper in Nature in 1940 entitled "Science and Religion"[63] in which he said that: "a person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings and aspirations to which he clings because of their super-personal value ... regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a Divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities. Accordingly a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance of those super-personal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation ... In this sense religion is the age-old endeavour of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals, and constantly to strengthen their effects." He argued that conflicts between science and religion "have all sprung from fatal errors." "[E]ven though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other" there are "strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies ... science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind ... a legitimate conflict between science and religion cannot exist." In Einstein's view, "neither the rule of human nor Divine Will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted ... by science, for [it] can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot." (Einstein 1940, pp. 605–607)

In a letter to Eric Gutkind in 1954 Einstein said: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."[64] In the same letter, Einstein rejected the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people: "For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."[64]

His friend Max Jammer explored Einstein's views on religion thoroughly in the 1999 book Einstein and Religion: Physics and Theology.[65]itics

Seeminly Einstein investigated religion not the sort of person to make a statement and an opinion with out reasearch, he actual recieved a catholic education and had talked much about the jewish religion with a Rabbi. He certainly read Spinozo's theories and seemingly read about Buddism.   

1
Sputnic

Those that do not believe mohammed to be a messenger of God say that the words were his. I am not one of those people. Look to islamic sources and there is no debate, no motivation to lie. God says in the Quran that the words it contains will always be protected from alteration. I believe God. I am a free thinker, a free thinker that loves God. I used to consider myself an atheist too, and didnt take the decision to live as a muslim lightly

2
Art_By_Alida

Christian men divorce their wives and know they will be left in poverty.

Muslim women can remarry. 

I like the Sharia laws about lending money.

Maybe if the USA were more ethical in THEIR lending laws, there would not be a global economic crisis.

Salaam and Duas to ya.

0
Sputnic

Thanks for the points on Gods laws and the obvious statements that many people treat their partners badly, should have thought of that myself ! Best wishes and happy new year

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