China is the Origin of Democracy...News&Opinion

by djermano | August 27, 2008 at 06:27 am
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China is the Origin of Democracy...News&Opinion

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The International Institute of Nonviolence

By: Rev. Jermano

Finding the origin of Democracy and its meaning has been a surprising research endeavor. Just who invented Democracy? Where did it originally begin? Many people are said to be comfortable with the idea that Democracy originated from America. Just where did the founding fathers of America really get their ideas about Democracy?

The Founding Fathers are said to have had strong educational backgrounds. Some, like <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 />Franklin, were largely self-taught or learned through apprenticeship. Others had obtained instruction from private tutors or at academies.

About half of the men had attended or graduated from college in the colonies or Britain. Some men held medical degrees or advanced training in theology. For the most part, the delegates were a well-educated group. A few lawyers had been trained at the Inns of Court in London, but most had apprenticed to an American lawyer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

Yet we do know that Americans were really British at one time and traveled across the Atlantic to the North American Continent to live. England was very well aware of Democracy well before the English Founding Fathers arrived in the North America.

For example: The rise of democratic parliaments in England and Scotland: Magna Carta (1215) limiting the authority of power holders, First elected parliament (1265), The Levellers political movement, English Civil War (1642-1651), Habeas Corpus Act (1679), English Bill of Rights and Scottish Claim of Right (1689). See also: other documents listed at the Constitution of the United Kingdom, History of the parliament of the United Kingdom. Simon de Montfort in 1265 introduced the idea that power holders are responsible to an electorate — (although only landowners were allowed to vote in the 1265 English election) Renaissance humanism was a cultural movement in Europe beginning in central Italy (particularly Florence) in the last decades of the 14th century. It revived and refined the study of language (First Latin, and then the Greek language by mid-century), science, philosophy, art and poetry of classical antiquity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy

Democracy can be found to have started in Greece, in Athens in 508 BC, along with many believing Democracy began in Mesopotamia or Iraq in 1728- 1686 BC. This would prove George Bush is wrong in having said he was bringing Democracy to Iraq.

India also predates Greece from Ancient Indian History to have valid examples of Democracy....therefore proving their democratic origins.

http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/histdem/indiadem.htm

Rev.

http://cache.search.yahoo.net/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Ancient+India+is+the+Origin+of+Democracy+Hindu&rp=Ancient+India+is+the+Origin+of+Democracy&sado=1&y=Search&fr=ush1-mail&u=www.hccanada.com/brahmindemocracy.pdf&w=ancient+india+indian+origin+origins+democracy+hindu&d=VGWXERg5RMGt&icp=1&.intl=us 

Rev.

 More interesting and compelling are the nations in our present world who are Democratic. There are 195 countries in the world and http://geography.about.com/od/countryinformation/a/capitals.htm

out of that number 140 are Democratic. 82 of that number are true Democracy’s. http://cache.search.yahoo.net/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Beginnings+of+Democracy+in+S.+America&y=Search&fr=ush_mailm&u=www.mygreencard.com/downloads/Democracy_in_Latin_America_2004.pdf&w=beginnings+beginning+begins+democracy+%22in+s%22+ins+america&d=dQramRg5RUkF&icp=1&.intl=us

 

So the world is really batting about 50/50 in being Democratic, while about 25% favors Democracy and the other 25% does not have Democracy. That is an interesting comparison I think.

 

Considering Russia, Lenin was a revolutionary social democrat. 1905 http://www.bolshevik.org/Pamphlets/LeninVanguard/LVP%201.htm

Even Stalin practiced Democracy in his life. Stalin’s revolutionary life began in 1898, at the age of nineteen. He had not yet heard of Lenin, but joined the Messame Dassy, one of the many petty bourgeois socialist groups active in Russia then. His father was a shoemaker and mother was a washerwoman who wanted her son to become a priest and so sent him to a church school.

His result was exceptionally brilliant and this got him to the Theological Seminary of Tiflis, Georgia, run by Jesuit monks. His attitude regarding the oppressive atmosphere of the Seminary and its priesthood was rebellions.

But, he started studying Darwinian biology and Economic history already, books forbidden in the seminary, and became member of the Messame Dassy. He was expelled from the Seminary in 1889. For a time, he took a job in the Tiflis Observatory. It was in fact his secret shelter. From what little is known of this period, it appears that socialists in Georgia, including members of the Messame Dassy, were divided on almost similar lines as the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks – and that young Stalin was nearer to the Bolshevik line, without knowing it.

In 1900, he and his colleagues organized the first May Day demonstration in Tiflis. Before the May Day in 1901, the tsarist police discovered and raided Stalin’s ‘‘secret office’’ at the observatory and arrested others. But Stalin escaped and addressed the May Day rally in the centre of Tiflis.

He was soon elected to the Social Democratic Committee of Tiflis and it sent him to organize the workers in Batum, where he took the name of Koba.

Within just four months, as the tsarist police record says, ‘‘As a result of Djugashvili’s activities, Social Democratic organizations began to spring up in all the factories of Batum …’’ After spending 18 months in tsarist prison, he was exiled to Siberia but escaped and arrived in Tiflis again in 1904. He ‘‘traveled from one prison or place or exile to another’’, in his own words, including Siberia, for several years between 1901 and 1917.

http://www.northstarcompass.org/nsc0509/stalin.htm

What is far more interesting is that the oldest known civilization in the world PR China began on Democratic Principals. It was called the Abdication System.

As life in Prehistoric Times was hard and full of challenges, people lived together to fight against terrible weather conditions and all kinds of natural disasters. The Chief was chosen according to one's ability in a system that was called the Abdication System. Shun was recommended by the previous chief, Yao, and became his successor. Later, Yu became the chief because of his contribution to controlling floodwaters. This system continued until 2070 BC when Boyi was recommended by Yu and Qi. Yu's son killed Boyi and made himself the king. Thus the Abdication System ended. The first dynasty - Xia hereafter became the forth ruling family in Chinese history. http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/history/prehistoric/

Just what is the Abdication System?  The best person should lead us is selected or chosen. I don’t know about you, but that is what Democracy is supposed to be isn’t it?  We decide who the best person is and we choose him or her to lead us. In all intended purposes here I wish to illustrate that basically nobody invented Democracy. It is something that has been with civilization since the oldest known civilization in the world having been founded in China.

In fact I would go as far to say that really Democracy has always been a test of wills with it self. Never mind the idea we give it another name called Communism, or Nazism, or Fascism or Imperialism.

Hitler a prime example was voted into power by the auspices of Democracy, a sad revelation but true.

Politically, Hitler acted from a dictatorial stance to enforce what he called "positive Christianity." The original twenty-five point party program, a Constitution of the Nazi party, included a demand for liberty "for all religious denominations in the State" and that it stood for "positive Christianity." Hitler insisted and declared the twenty-five points as unalterable [Toland p. 218] (in spite of the anti-Catholic feelings of Martin Bormann). Hitler got his way.

Hitler stressed the importance of a strong, well-organized Evangelical church which would work in close cooperation with the state. He conceived of creating one large united Protestant church to stand parallel to the Catholic Church. And to the Catholics, Hitler wanted their freedom of spiritual and educational power, as long as they did not come in conflict with the political will of the government. Thus, the Nazis and the Vatican worked for an agreement, conducted by Eugenio Pacelli (Pope Pius XII). On July 20, 1933, the Nazis and the Vatican singed the Reich Concordat, establishing the freedom and power of the Catholic Church in Germany. http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm

But we know Hitler was crazy when he started his assault on the world always reflecting on the Old Testament toward his political decisions with war.

He was mad with Violence instead of Nonviolence, and somehow as our society moves forward with its preconceived ideas of Democracy, nothing has really changed much except the rule of the Abdication System; may the best man or woman lead us.

http://www.sacu.org/religion.html

Rev.

 

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0
link

How can China be the "Origin of Democracy" and not be democratic?

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djermano

They are democratic. How can America claim to be democratic when it steals elections? How can America claim to be democratic when its always at war? How can America claim to be democratic when they rely on China to finance their debt?

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BigT

That makes absolutely no sense. Who stole elections (yes, yes, I'm sure George Bush and those 9 judges in black robes stole it, yeah, right), why can't a democracy go to war, and why can't a democracy have debts? Do you even know what democracy is about?

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djermano

The Democracy in America has always been at war Big T. How is war a sign of positive significance? How is debt positive? You think owing money is better than not owing money. The reason the private sector likes debt is because they own the banks and they reap interest payments. The higher the debt the more money they make. But why should Americans pay for interest on debt when they didn't create the debt. The debt is said to be realized when the private sector decides to take the Democracy to war. In all respects it does not add up to protecting democracy but what it does add up to is filling the pockets of the private sector who own the banks. That type of Democracy is not Democracy but out right extortion and murder.

Really in my view Democracy in the USA has been established through force and military might. It has never come through the values of culture in America where guns and force were not a tool to its establishment. This in fact brings about another idea to how Democracy can and should be. Presently in America I would say the Democracy is a Violent form, and to counter that it needs a Nonviolent Democracy form. Nonviolence Democracy is never discussed in America or given its due, because people are so in tune to the Violent form of Democracy. They don't know it, and people are silenced who wish to bring it forward....such as Rev. King.

To think that banks payroll debt for war to make money for the Violent form of Democracy is quite dismal, when the Nonviolent form of Democracy would make more than double the earnings than to the slave of people paying interest from their taxes on such debt.

America is without a doubt one of the most backward forms of government I have ever seen. One party brings society to war and massive debt, and the other party is left paying it and fixing the problem. What is keen to this realization is that why should the people who did not support the war, or bring massive debt and trouble to the land be the ones fixing it? In my view the people who waged the war and brought upon the debt and trouble should be the ones to pay off the debt and repairing the damage it brought to society. The fact is....America does not know real justice, does not know real Democracy, and does not know real law. If it did.....parties would be responsible for the trouble they cause and pay for their own debts.

No longer would another party have the right to squander a nation who was in its surplusses, and take it to higher debt limits in the history of the USA. Then to expect the opposing party members to go through the hard work in paying off the debt is beyond acceptable. It is like welfare. One party does the work to assure a surplus and the other just freely takes and squanders the nations wealth throwing it into out of control spiralling debts. This is the trouble with American Politics...they are mentally wacko.

The article is meant to discuss the origins of Democracy, and how several societies and cultures in history have different ideas to what Democracy is. Certainly in the USA major parties disagree on how Democracy is implemented and managed. This therefore means that many people have different ideas about Democracy, and really the issue turns into a battle of wills of Democracy vs. Democracy....nevermind Democracy vs. Dictators, Nazism, Facism, or Communism.

Democracy is at war with itself and it doesn't even know it.

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djermano

Thanks for your comment here zichi...and I did mention them in the article. My research finds that China has claims to Democracy way before Athens and other civilizations.

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BallyZACA

Really?  Now that's laughable! LOL

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BallyZACA

Even Gandhi's grandson has severed his relations with the Institute for Non-Violence, should tell everyone something about his refusal to have his name (or, that of his famous grandfather's name) used manipulatively! 

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djermano

And so Mr. Bally, what does this have to do with China is the Origin of Democracy? 

And why are you always attacking me?

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djermano

I would like to know why Nowpublic allows this guy to continually insult me?

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djermano

China is a democratic country.

Barry ORegan
Barry ORegan
flagged this story as Good Stuff

at 16:23 on August 27th, 2008

djermano, I like this story. It's good stuff. Really, really good stuff

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djermano

Thanks Barry,

Going through tons of information trying to sort out even the suggestion of the origin of Democracy is a long and tedious job. I found evidence that China in its beginning was based upon Democracy although they called it something else. It was called the Abdication System. Other older civilizations to include Egypt would be the starting point in this search, and I found Egypt was not close to anything called Democracy. But China being the oldest of nearly 7,000 years old did surprise me with the Abdication System which in itself is a form of Democracy.

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World_Groove

Djermano, I think what people are trying to get across is that regardless of what could be the worlds first democracy in any sense, what we will always consider the foundation of the democratic system is derived from Greece. It is that point in time in Ancient Greece, and the thoughts and writings of that time which formed the modern western notion of Democracy. The word "Democracy" itself is derived from Greek.

There are a dozen types of democracy, but in modern thought the base that all other types are categorized against would be the Greek system.

I am sorry if you feel attacked, and I might be missing something but I don't see the writings here as being attacks. A different opinion is merely a different opinion. An attack on an opinion is not an attack on a person. An attack on a person would be saying "you are an idiot" not "that is an idiotic notion" (even though that would be very rude)

Cheers,

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djermano

Worldgroove thanks for your comment.  I am very well aware of what other people think and have fallen for their main arguments toward Democracies beginning.  I am fully aware of Greek claims. But the subject is more than a Greek claim...and I have discovered that Democracy has sprung up in the world from many places, especially from places where these people feel are anti-democratic.

I bet if more efforts were put into finding the real original founding places, more evidence and proof would be found. I don't discount Greece's claim, but I assure you I can not turn a blind eye to other places such as Mesopotamia, Ancient India, nor Russia, or China for that matter. The word Democracy derived from Greek, does not mean other words were not used to describe democracy...such as the Chinese name in calling it the Abdication System.

Certainly when frameworks or different names support the same said issue and format can not be considered something other than that. Therefore China has emerged as the Original Civilization that founded the Abdication System better known as or aka: Democracy

 And this is definitely an insult to me when Mr. Bally rudely exclaims: Even Gandhi's grandson has severed his relations with the Institute for Non-Violence, should tell everyone something about his refusal to have his name (or, that of his famous grandfather's name) used manipulatively! 

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World_Groove

Which  form of "Democracy" did the Abdication system take? Democracy is an umbrella term with many types to classify below it.

Please explain how the statement quoted in the last paragraph of your comment is an "insult" to you personally.

The number of places that are considered non democratic on earth by most intellectuals can probably be counted on one hand (maybe two). Saudi Arabia and Vatican City being the most noteworthy that are not considered Democratic. That shows you the vast scope of the word "democracy"

I personally think what you will find is that most of the world just does not care who was "first", only from where the seed sprouted in abundance and continued to grow and spread from.

Remember it can never be proven who was "really first", only who can be "first documented".

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djermano

Which  form of "Democracy" did the Abdication system take? Democracy is an umbrella term with many types to classify below it.

....Clearly WorldGroove you did not read the article. I answered those questions in the article.

Please explain how the statement quoted in the last paragraph of your comment is an "insult" to you personally.

...It's an insult because he is attacking my Institute I have started called the International Institute of Nonviolence. Certainly Gandhi would warmly welcome such an Institute, a long with his relatives as well. But it doesn't matter what Mr Bally wants to level against me. His claims are quite disingenuine.

The number of places that are considered non democratic on earth by most intellectuals can probably be counted on one hand (maybe two). Saudi Arabia and Vatican City being the most noteworthy that are not considered Democratic. That shows you the vast scope of the word "democracy"

....Again you did not read the article because I noted that as well, with references actually done by a UN report.

I personally think what you will find is that most of the world just does not care who was "first", only from where the seed sprouted in abundance and continued to grow and spread from.

...If that is the case, why does GW Bush and others shout their lies of  claim and validity to the world? They are not very good examples to Democracy in supporting principles. The idea is that Democracy has many different seeds that grows different crops for the people. One democracy does not suit for the many differnt types of democracy that exist. One does not grow sunflowers in the shade, yet many varities of plants can't exist in direct sunlight.

Remember it can never be proven who was "really first", only who can be "first documented

....Thank you for your comments Worldgroove,  you prove my point that Greece is but one of many who documented their history, as China has done as well.

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World_Groove
  • Sorry not once did I read where there is an attachment of the Abdication system to an officially recognized term for a "type of democracy". The only reference to the name "Abdication system" I have found are other versions of this very same story.
  • I understand better, now can you explain if the comment about the grandson of Gandhi is correct.
  • Stated different I actually narrowed the field further and gave a couple specifics.
  • Please extrapolate on this statement "If that is the case, why does GW Bush and others shout their lies of  claim and validity to the world?" to your specific point in your article of "bringing democracy to Iraq" you are not trying to understand the speakers version/type of democracy, and are placing the broad umbrella of the term over a situation which with understanding has a more specific definition.
  • Sorry but I fail to see how that statement proves your point. My statement is general and no actual proof can be distilled from it.


Basically It seems to me you built a house of cards using the broad term democracy, when to really bring the point home you would have needed to use the specific types of democracy that were well defined and then understand how each party involved understands it and wanted it to be expressed it in their dialog.

It can be argued then when any western politician speaks of democracy he is in the wrong for not being more definitive in his statement, and clarify the type of democracy, yet it is to be taken as a given that it is the type of democracy practiced in the USA which is meant by officials of that government. 

A constitutional republic is a form of democracy, but not all democracies are constitutional republics

And this is far more vested than I ever wanted to be in this post..........

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djermano

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/history/prehistoric/

  • Sorry not once did I read where there is an attachment of the Abdication system to an officially recognized term for a "type of democracy". The only reference to the name "Abdication system" I have found are other versions of this very same story.
  • ......The above is the link...and when you read it, I understand its connection to democracy.
  • I understand better, now can you explain if the comment about the grandson of Gandhi is correct.
  • ....the comment written by Mr. Bally? It certainly is not correct..
  • Stated different I actually narrowed the field further and gave a couple specifics.
  • Please extrapolate on this statement "If that is the case, why does GW Bush and others shout their lies of  claim and validity to the world?" to your specific point in your article of "bringing democracy to Iraq" you are not trying to understand the speakers version/type of democracy, and are placing the broad umbrella of the term over a situation which with understanding has a more specific definition.
  • ..... They have always said they are the purveyors of Democracy. It is drummed into their heads in grade school. It was drummed into my head when I was in School in the USA. Students are left to believe that the Founding Fathers are God of this earth, and it is the furthest from the truth. On top of that Mesopotamia claims to be the bread-basket where democracy began. Mesopotamia is the same region now called Iraq today. How in the world does Bush proclaim to bring Democracy to Iraq, when Iraq formulated and is one of the origin countries in the world to bring forth Democracy? I think Reagan recognized that and is why they sold him weapons of mass destruction on credit I believe. Everything fell apart on Saddam when he couldn't pay his credit bills and wanted to increase the price to Oil from Iraq, but the USA and OPEC refused to acknowledge his request. Instead they ultimately bombed and killed thousands of innocent people, hung Saddam, and raised the price anyway, so it goes in their coffers instead. And they called Bill Clinton Slick?
  • Sorry but I fail to see how that statement proves your point. My statement is general and no actual proof can be distilled from it.
  • .......The point is America didn't invent Democracy, and they didn't bring it to Iraq!


Basically It seems to me you built a house of cards using the broad term democracy, when to really bring the point home you would have needed to use the specific types of democracy that were well defined and then understand how each party involved understands it and wanted it to be expressed it in their dialog.

......If one is being broad about the word, it encompasses all ideas to the spectrum of what Democracy is. This includes having another name for it, and realizing that Democracy has more than Greek letters and American Skull and Bones to it. They are interested in their name brand of Democracy and highly discount the real objective picture....namely Democracy did not Originate from the USA.

It can be argued then when any western politician speaks of democracy he is in the wrong for not being more definitive in his statement, and clarify the type of democracy, yet it is to be taken as a given that it is the type of democracy practiced in the USA which is meant by officials of that government. 

.......You are telling me something new here? Politicians lie all the time...Its the nature of their existence. Whoever joins their chorus they sing the same tune.

A constitutional republic is a form of democracy, but not all democracies are constitutional republics

......And that's the truth there.

And this is far more vested than I ever wanted to be in this post..........

Nothing to be alarmed about, its all in a good day of analysis.

There it is...This is Rev. Jermano .....God Bless.

 

Uwe Paschen
Uwe Paschen
flagged this story as Good Stuff

at 18:43 on August 27th, 2008

djermano, I like this story. It's good stuff.

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djermano

You can look it up Zichi. Here is one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROC_presidential_election,_2004

And you have to remember that Taiwan is China, so really China has 2 Presidents at the moment.

And Hong Kong certainly has its own free elections for Mayor.

I do not know how to obtain the Mainland results, because they are still a developing country. But that does not mean they are not voting nor does it mean they are not democratic. In the USA they do not validate votes, nor do they actually verify and recount, and their numbers are as bogus from their Popular Votes to the phoney Electorial College System, that was never relied upon when the Supreme Court selected Bush as President. So I don't know where you want to debate on this or the merits of vote counting you claim to be leaning toward.

Emilio Lizardo
Emilio Lizardo
flagged this story as Good Stuff

at 19:38 on August 27th, 2008

djermano, I like this story. It's good stuff.

Sounds to me like Democracy isn't what it used to be ...

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djermano

Thanks for the flag Emilio. You are certainly right about that. Democracy just sort of changes and evolves all the time. But isn't that the nature of it and why things change?

Milieunet
Milieunet
flagged this story as Good Stuff

at 20:38 on August 27th, 2008

djermano, I like this story. It's good stuff.

When China is the origin, then they lost in China.

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Uwe Paschen

Here is another look at Freedom and democracy.

http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/freedom-liberty-abused-ideal

It is an Ideal we are about to lose.

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djermano

I'll have a look there.

http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/freedom-liberty-abused-ideal

Rev.

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BallyZACA

Nobody has attacked YOU... only the propaganda you’re constantly posting in an attempt to discredit the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 />USA.  It must be challenged and brought into question, else wise, somebody might begin to believe your dwattle... therefore, I am ONLY exercising my rights to keep a small element from not being overlooked... its called the -- "TRUTH!"

-END-

 

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djermano

It  was an attack Bally. You constantly wage personal attacks upon me instead of addressing the issue. It's not me. It's something I wrote about and present as news and opinion. When the barn can burn down because of fire, I would be a fool to stand by and allow people to smoke there. It is no more propaganda than the things you write, but I don't go off calling your stuff propaganda, because propaganda to me is also a personal attack word. Your words such as dwattle is to me an insult too. It has nothing to do with the point of the article, and you end up saying you are representing truth, yet you really say nothing....but attacks on me. You said nothing about the article China is the Origin of Democracy, why you agree or why you did not agree, with supporting links.

0
René

The USA is a Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy.

A pure Democracy is nothing more than 'mob rule' with no provisions for the rights of the individual. The Founding Fathers saw this as one of the worst forms of government and in their wisdom provided a framework to secure the rights of the individual, ie., a Constitution and a Bill of Rights with separation of powers subject to Judicial Review which is the 'Rule of Law' we live under.

An informative chart and explanation of the differences.

The critical difference lies in the fact that a Constitutional Republic has a Constitution that limits the powers of the government.  It also spells out how the government is structured, creating checks on its power and balancing power between the different branches.



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djermano

Thanks Ren'e for visting and your comment. You say that the USA is a Constitutional Republic, yet GW Bush said he wanted to bring Democracy to Iraq. So you are telling me that he wanted to bring mob rule to Iraq. That is not very encouraging I think. I can agree we need a Constitution but in fact the limits in the power of government have not worked in this administration. Bush was never elected....he was selected, that broke a very big part of the ideals to the Constitution. The peoples vote did not elect him as the constitution says is our individual right.

50 % of the world believes in Democracy...but in fact you say that is wrong. So now we have another meaning to Democracy which is a Republic. According to Wiki: Democracy is a system of government by which political sovereignty is retained by the people and exercised directly by citizens. In modern times it has also been used to refer to a constitutional republic where the people have a voice through their elected representatives. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy  accordingly they claim Democracy is also a Republic.

 

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