Gaza and Hamas..War Criminals or Soldiers doing their Duty?

by 158 | February 8, 2009 at 09:16 am
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Mass murder, child murder, terrorist, Nazi,  civilian deaths, child, wanton destruction; all these and more are used about the recent Gaza. This will present some definitions of the terms loosely used.  A war criminal is someone who commits war crimes.  But there is much confusion on what a war crime is, what is mass murder and what is legitimate national defense.It will not cover every possible war crime but concentrate on the worst ones.

CHILD.. Generally defined as someone under 18. But if Israel sends soldiers under 18 into Gaza, armed and shooting at Hamas, then Hamas has a legal right to kill them.

CIVILIAN..Generally defined as someone not in a military unit or someone not taking part in the fighting..But many Israelis are army reservists who don't wear uniforms, but who do fight with the Israeli army, making them a military target.

MILITARY TARGET...  Clearly this would include soldiers. It would also include government buildings, roads, weapons manufacturing plants, communications, and other areas that would support the Israeli army in Gaza.

MURDER..Intentionally killing someone without a just cause. If a Hamas fighter kills an Israeli, military or civilian, who is shooting at him it is not murder.

TERRORIST/JIHADIST... Both are insults.  Much like calling Israelis Zionists or colonialists. A Hamas fighter defending his country, killing Israeli soldiers is not a terrorist. Deliberately killing civilians would be. A Jihadist is someone who wants to destroy and occupy Israel. Wanting to live in peace within your borders is not.

WAR CRIME/WAR CRIMINAL

The most misused terms of the Gaza war. Part of this is confusion over the nature and purpose of war. War is meant to destroy the ability of the enemy to continue to fight.  This is done by killing his men and destroying his infrastructure and weapons. War is not a neat, exact video game where everything is scripted. It is blood, dust, smoke, fear, destruction, confusion, mistakes, young men trying to stay alive while stopping the enemy.

If a Hamas fighter walks up to an Israeli child and kills him that is a war crime.

If a Hamas fighter fires at an armed Israeli soldier and accidentally hits a child it is not a war crime.

If Israeli soldiers fire at Hamas fighters from or near civilian houses, Hamas can return fire even if civilians are nearby. It is not a war crime for Hamas if civilians are killed then.

It is not a war crime If Hamas fires at Israeli soldiers who are hiding behind children, even if some of the children are killed.

If Israelis set up a position in the streets near a school or a UN building and fires at Hamas fighters, it is not a war crime for Hamas to destroy the soldiers by any means available even if there is damage or even deaths in the school or UN building.

Accusations of committing war crimes against Hamas are easy to make but the standard is much the same as proving first degree murder. There must be an intent to kill civilians. Accidents are not murder. Civilians caught in a crossfire is not murder. Hearsay and rumors are not enough to prove murder.

Emotions run high on the Gaza war but we need to know the meaning of the terms we use. It may be accurate to say at times in that war Hamas killed civilians but unless we can show that Hamas deliberately targeted civilians to kill, without military necessity, then it is not a war crime but a tragic and inevitable part of war.

Which side is justified in the war does not determine what is a war crime.  Many Nazi soldiers fought and killed in an unjust war without committing war crimes.

And what is said about Hamas here would also equally apply to Israel. And anything said about Israel would equally apply to Hamas.

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4
158

This is my opinions but it is also factual.  In the debate over Gaza many terms are misused and that only confuses the real issues.

All comments are welcome but please do not make personal attacks on anyone who disagrees.


1
Babel-Fish

I do have a problem of a terrorist fighting for his country?  Now I will explain if Hamas fighter is firing rockets into Israel discriminatory and shooting soldiers before Israeli's retaliate and the Hamas movement is declared a terrorist organizational for lets say sending indoctrinated members into Israel as suicide bombers. Blowing up innocent civilians including children. Are we now to call these Hamas terrorist to be politically right Hamas fighters or the term they actualy refer themselves Hamas freedom fighters? 

Your description of targets etc, is seemingly fine untill we look at the history prior to this bloodthirsty event in Gaza. Plus we really have to look at what these people themselves prefer as a title.

Okay we now have a bunch of terrorist under the wrath of a heavy handed Israeli Army that now have to protect themselves under the new title you gave them. Fine now if these fine young Hamas fighters stopped firing rockets into Israel then the Israeli's would stop making mistakes and killing inocent palistinans whilst trying to kill Hamas terrorist and those that order these fine young freedom fighters into sending non discriminate rockets into pockets of innocent Israelis.

Nice little article though for someone siting in a room far away from a troubled world having no true clue what this horrible little war is all about. War is not clear cut and the nice titles should never go to those that murder each other on both sides or those that kill innocent people accidently or on purpose to achieve their military or terrorist aims. In fact your clearly  out of focus, but I am sure well intended.  

 

3
djsblack

There is no moral equivalence between the Islamist regime of Hamas, whose nationalistic goal is to wipe Israel off the map, and the democratic State of Israel trying to protect its citizens against this terrorist regime.

The "War Crime" hooey is a bunch of baloney directed at Israel and is merely propaganda. That the Hamas and other terrorists hide among civillians, civillian infrastructure, and use civilians as human shields, is consistent with our own wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, to name but a couple.

Frankly, I and quite a bit of others are sick to death of this double standard of protecting and promoting the Arab Palestinians who are probably the most failed people in the world to restore law and order and to establish their nationalistic goals.

The reason is that they are too committed to Jew hate and not enough to develop effective and efficient mechanisms to build their own state.

Enough. already protecting and rationalizing their stupidity, insipidity, violence, terrorism, corruption, and failure to live in the 21st century as civivilized people off the U.N. dole.

1
158

This would apply to both sides int this conflict. Anyone who deliberately fires at civilians with the intent of killing them is a terrorist and a war criminal.  I am not defending either side. What I am saying is that a war, especially one fought in an urban area will cause civilian casualties.  While any death is tragic, not all deaths in a war are war crimes.

Thanks for your comment.


3
Fripouille

The only people who use these terms have no idea what they mean. "War, crimes, mass murder" etcetera are terms used by sympathisers of the Palestinian cause who think that making a noise will do something (they are so wrong, blanket and exaggerated claims just make those claims look ridiculous), Hamas itself (all is fair in love and war, that's normal and part of the game) and hypocritically outraged amateur online "journalists" needing stars or recommendations for sensationalist headlines.

Other terms used include "mass slaughter, genocide, ethnic cleansing, holocaust, barbarism and extermination”.

These terms have quite rightly been used to describe actions by the Nazis (over six million victims) Pol Pot (over a million victims) those responsible for Rwanda (800,000 victims).

Victims in Gaza over the last ten years? Not at all comparable, and, in all the cases I quoted above, ths stated aim of those responsible was just that, the extermination of their enemies, their families and children.

What's wrong with some people in the West, comfortably sat in front of computer screens shouting their heads off in such a self-righteously peurile manner?

I almost wish that this pompous and bourgeouis claptrap continues to flourish, because, the more there is, the more ridiculous it looks.

Finally, I sincerely hope that investigations are carried out into all allegations.

But, anti-zionist readers of this comment, I mean ALL allegations, and that means on BOTH sides.

Then we'll see what Hamas did to its own people too....

Can't wait. And, you know what? It won't happen. Because as soon as the first serious actions are begun against the IDF, you may be sure that corollary accusations shall be levelled against Hamas.

And some of you out there wouldn't like that kind of equitable and balanced treatment now would you, Huh?

Don't ask for it, you might just get it.......Can't wait, as I said.

Thanks for an excellent article.

2
158

Fripouille

Thank you for adding to this.

You make an excellent point on exaggerated accusations of crimes.  It reminds me of one statement by a welfare worker that a child with dirt on his clothes was a sign of child abuse. This just hinders the investigations into real abuse.

I too would support a FULL investigation into ALL charges of war crimes on BOTH sides. You are the only one I have seen call for both rather than only one side to be investigated.

1
Fripouille

It astounds me that people can't see that! It seems so obvious. Sure, let's have investigations into the IDF. Can it start tomorrow, please?!!, Bring on the vids and the photos and whatever! But, for heaven's sake, that's gotta cut both ways!

If not, it isn't 'looking for the truth' it's just a trial with the defence being refused permission to submit evidence...

As I say though, I seriously doubt it will happen. Once people begin to realise that both sides can, and will, play at that game, all those ardent demanders of 'justice' shall just crawl back into the woodwork.

1
158

For some people justice means revenge against just one side.

1
158

I support investigating war crimes by Israel and Hamas.  Do you?

This pointed out why we should not condemn Hamas without facts.

Please take your complaints against NP staff to them,

1
158

If you will read it this article defends Hamas against false charges.

Name one kid who starved in Gaza.

You are welcome to give your opinion but you can not make personal attacks against those who disagree with you.

Show me one thing n this story that is not true.

I never said I was a soldier. Or not.

You are welcome to prove what I said is false.

I post many stories from Palestine media.

0
Fripouille

Hello Anti-drivel.

This is a post on the Gaza conflict. Could you please stay on track here, if you don't mind? If you have any complaints against the editorial policy of this site, please write to the site, Duh. You should know, as you are obviously experienced in the matter, that staying on-subject makes for less irrelevant commenting.

Thanks.

1
158

Should be renamed I am Drivil

1
Fripouille

"JournalismEthicist". (?)

As you addressed me personally in your ummm 'comment', I shall answer you. But don't get excited, I won't be doing it again.

What on earth is wrong with being an ex-military man?! I was a member of a military that wears uniforms and represents a country, and am proud to have done so.

You ignorantly defend a bunch of poor bedraggled and indoctrinated victims and defenders of ideas and ideals that come from another age and other countries, notably Syria and Iran. Victims who have been conned into believing that firing lego rockets into a country can hasten it's demise by demagogues who are not risking their lives in the struggle. Pawns.

I sincerely feel sorry for them.

But, then again, I'm an ex-military guy.

You are a 2.0 cyber warrior. And you shall remain so. You have never, and shall never, do anything else but foment trouble using 0's and 1's in a computer.

Respect to you and your courage brother. Over and out.

2
158

Fripouille.

I second that.

1
Fripouille

How can anyone not want an impartial enquiry into what happened in the latest round of fighting? They all say they want it, but, when push comes to shove, they're gonna disappear.

Your post asks pertinent and balanced questions. Some of the answers to it just show that some people are not at all interested in the truth. For them, the end is more important than the means.

They need to understand that they are cutting the branch they're sitting on, and condemning poor Palestinians to further suffering, which no-one wants. But that's not their objective. They have no objective except prolonging a situation in which they would never have the guts to participate themselves in real terms....

Moreover, it is striking that some of those bona-fide members on the site who were very present before with their 'holocaust' opinions are no longer here to defend them now....

Amazing what a bit of quiet and common sense can do...

3
158

If you check these anonymous posters all have the same few talking points.  

They attack NP for requiring them to be civil,

they condemn Israel as mass murderers,

they condemn whoever writes a story without condemning Israel.

They refer to starving Gaza kids-though not one has starved there.

They are an organized anti-Jewish group getting their "news" from the same place. As you say each time they post something like this they help Israel.



0
Fripouille

(Oh, it's just one or two internet renegades who have problems handling that it's actually permitted to think in different ways. I said one or two. There are around ten anon handles, but just one, or two, people driving this stuff).

1
Yellow Guitar

158:

Thanks for seeking to clarify terminology. This is a worthwhile - no essential - exercise if there is to be any meaningful discussion of what goes on, let alone dialogue between the parties involved. We must understand each other. Your post shows a willingness to do so and I commend you for it.

Feel free to check out the article by George Orwell called "Politics and the English Language" if you haven't already. The link is below. I believe he was saying in his inimitable way precisely what you are saying. The last paragraph is key - if we are not judicious and precise in our use of language then these words (genocide, NAZI, war-crime, murder, etc)belong in the dustbin. We are back at the tower of babel.

http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit

Best regards and cheers for a highly readable and worthwhile post.

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First Flagged at 9:31 AM, Feb 8, 2009 by René
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