Hey, While We're At It, Justice for Nuremberg Zwei und Zwanzig!

by Roy C | November 13, 2009 at 11:16 am
159 views | 49 Recommendations | 13 comments

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Nuremberg Trial

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The model of fairness and objectivity that our dear president and his philosopher king attorney general Holder have begun to represent has made me think how much evil has been done in the name of a pseudo-Justice in our not-so-distant past.

Yes, I was thinking of the Nuremberg trials, trials for which there was no precedent. You know, it turns out we, victorious Allies, went out and constructed a whole lot of hooey, apparently.

More importantly, we could have used our existing justice system and not betrayed our ideals when dealing with the Nuremberg 22.

Looking at Holder's and Obama's decisions, it is more than obvious that the trials in Nuremburg were not fair! We should have brought back the Nazi High Command to stand trial in New York like regular civilians.

No Jews, or people such as myself with Jewish in-laws or close friends, would be allowed on the jury because that would be "prejudicial".

Any evidence obtained under duress would have had to be thrown out. Of course, there was so much more evidence, but, then again, if you went looking into Nazi documents without getting a search warrant first, that would have to be thrown out.

Oh, and the Israelis would have to return Eichmann to Argentina, and then allow the Israeli agents to undergo a trial, with or without them being present, because, of course, the "kidnapping" was illegal and a violation of national and international law.

Shame on those Israeli agents not trusting the "World Court"! Didn't the Europeans prove with their defense of the Jews that the Europeans could be counted on when push came to shove?

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess what happened is that fascists in every country, such as France and a lot of Eastern European countries worked real hard to make their idols, the German Fascists, real proud of them by being almost as good as the Nazis were at rounding up Jews! Yes, they could never equal the "Master Race", but they could go all-out and prove themselves to be great and efficient servants, a kind of Master Race of Toadies!

Just makes your sense of the trustworthiness of humanity swell with pride!

Anyway, for you legal Puritans who disguise your sympathy with the enemy by demanding "fair trials" for war criminals, please understand that I do understand some of your objections.

Sometimes, maybe, we "invent" a system of justice, and that is the closest thing we get to justice. But, for me, the idea that the Nazi High Command had been allowed to live at the end of such a war as they conducted would have been a Crime Against Humanity itself.

Why not apply your moral precepts universally? Let's do the thought experiment.

Wouldn't the left have to nix the Nuremberg trials with the view that "we can't descend into being what they are" as they applied that principle universally, as every great thinker of  morality has demanded?

Yes, and take a look at the pseudo-reality of the legal principles underlying the Nuremberg trials, and the Israeli abduction, trial and execution of Adolf Eichmann, and tell me you would forgo all this for your beloved "principle". 

You would? You're a liar.

First, as mentioned in the preceeding article, above, there was the absence of any legal precedent for trials of this kind. Nations have waged war throughout human history and,presumably, war-time atrocities are the rule rather than the exception. The defendants in the Nuremberg trials felt, and perhaps with some historical justification, that they were being singled out in the annals of military history for very different treatment. The counsel for the defense was certainly aware of this and made it one of their major arguments. Even the prosecution seemed uncomfortable with the issue. At least they felt it incumbent upon them to provide extensive rationalization for the trials and to make certain their proceedings were tied to the principle of international law.

Second, the problem of holding individuals responsible for the crimes of a government. The Hague Convention clearly holds signatory powers responsible for adherence to the provisions of the charter but nowhere are individuals said to be culpable. The prosecution avoided this issue by arguing that the "crimes against humanity" were carried out in a centrally controlled manner and that those accused were an essential link between the orders and their ultimate realization. Essentially, the charge was "conspiracy" and the accused were significant parties to that conspiracy.

Third, there was the overwhelming difficulty of obtaining documentary evidence. In the first place, Hitler's style of administration was to let it be known what his wishes and intentions were and allow his subordinates, who undoubtedly feared the consequences of disappointing the Fuehrer, create a plan of implementation.

In the meeting of the German Defense Council help on May 5, 1933, Wilhelm Keitel, Hitler's Military Chief of Staff, presiding, the members were instructed that:

    "No document must be lost since otherwise the enemy propaganda would make use of it. Matters communicated orally cannot be proven; they can be denied by us in Geneva"

However, the Germans were not as thorough at destroying incriminating evidence as they were at other tasks. By the time the researchers were finished, thirteen large volumes of documentary evidence had been gathered.

A fourth issue, the "higher command" issue, proved to be a very difficult one. In almost every case, the defendants who appeared before the International Military Tribunal could rightly claim that they were following orders from superiors -- often directly from Hitler himself. Likewise, they could legitimately argue that orders they gave to those under their command were issued in obedience to Hitler of one of his top officers. Hitler was, after all, the dictator of Germany politically and Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces. However, the Tribunal's Charter, Article 8, is very clear with regard to the Tribunal's position on this argument:

    "The fact that the Defendant acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior shall not free him from responsibility, but may be considered in mitigation of punishment if the Tribunal determines that Justice so requires." in Telford Taylor, The Anatomy of the Nuremberg Trials, New York: Alfred Knopf, 1992: Appendix A, p.648.

Finally, the defendants could rightfully claim, and Goering did so frequently, that the Allied forces committed some of the same atrocities for which they were being charged. Allied bombing of non-military and unprotected German cities (and Japanese cities) brought untold injury and death to civilian populations. But, it was not the Allied officers who were under indictment for war crimes and another person's, or nation's, guilt does not decrease or diminish the guilt of another person or nation.



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0
smkovalinsky

I always thought they got a raw deal,  Roy. ;)

0
albertacowpoke

I hope Osama Bin Laden ends up in civil court, now that the precedent has been set.

1
Hugh Askew

"....another person's, or nation's, guilt does not decrease or diminish the guilt of another person or nation."

While that may be true, Roy, it is well to remember that this is America. Home of the brave, land of the limp-wristed sort, that longs to wave the white hankie of defeat.

0
stejeb

I've never been entirely sure that any trial anywhere can be "fair" after atrocities have been commited, there have been so many trials in modern times where the only sense of the right/wrong of it boils down to where your sympathies are.

I don't see how any trial can be seen as fair if some of the evidence that will be presented is accepted when you suspect how it was obtained.

And when you consider some of modern histories worst crimes in the name of war have gone unpunished it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Well written Roy.

0
Roy C

Thanks.

0
snuffysmith

Justice delayed is justice denied.

0
Edmund Jenks


1
Rory Cripps

Off with their heads!

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Babel-Fish

Nuremberg trials for your information was trialed by the Allies and was not a total American affair. 

The International Military Tribunal (IMT) took judgement.

9/II was a USA affair nothing to do with the Allies?  Therefore why are you asking for an IMT?

Your not making sense at least to this non American soul.


0
Roy C

"Yes, I was thinking of the Nuremberg trials, trials for which there was no precedent. You know, it turns out we, victorious Allies, went out and constructed a whole lot of hooey, apparently."

I said it.


2
Barry Artiste

"Lest we forget" this past Remembrance Day very few have  offered to die for us, they are Jesus Christ and our Soldiers, one died for our souls, the other for our freedom.

Unfortunately the Lefty's forgot about both!


0
PIM of SPAIN

Indeed Barry I agree with you to struck this point and come to yr conclusion. As above is stated: "... there was the overwhelming difficulty of obtaining documentary evidence. In the first place," With most trials it is mulling in historical facts that afterwards are brought to the attention, by clever lawyers making the best of the money out of it. It is very hard to obtain 100% objectivity and consequently 100% justice in cases of war crime. But a good initiative to bring this to the attention again Roy.

0
Babel-Fish

One interesting point about World War II is that both serving presidents where Democrat's so the American view concerning the setting up of the Nuremberg trials was democratic one.

British War Cabinet documents, released on 2 January 2006, have shown that as early as December 1944, the Cabinet had discussed their policy for the punishment of the leading Nazis if captured. British Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill had then advocated a policy of summary execution in some circumstances with the use of an Act of Attainder to circumvent legal obstacles, and was only dissuaded from this by talks with US leaders later in the war. In late 1943, during the Tripartite Dinner Meeting at the Tehran Conference, the Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin, proposed executing 50,000–100,000 German staff officers. US President Franklin D. Roosevelt, aghast[not in citation given], sarcastically[not in citation given] joked that perhaps 49,000 would do. Churchill denounced the idea of "the cold blooded execution of soldiers who fought for their country." However, he also stated that war criminals must pay for their crimes and that in accordance with the Moscow Document which he himself had written, they should be tried at the places where the crimes were committed. Churchill was vigorously opposed to executions "for political purposes."




 

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smkovalinsky
First Flagged at 11:39 AM, Nov 13, 2009 by smkovalinsky
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