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Israel’s military to investigate Gaza op
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by tikun | March 19, 2009 at 09:08 am
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It appears that we are now getting further reaction about the claims by a few soldiers on the Gaza Op.
Update: IDF soldiers who took part in January's offensive in Hamas-ruled Gaza refuted on Thursday claims of immoral conduct on the military's part. "I don’t believe there were soldiers who were looking to kill (Palestinians) for no reason," said 21-year-old Givati Brigade soldier Assaf Danziger, who was lightly injured three days before the conclusion of Operation Cast Lead.
"What happened there was not enjoyable to anyone; we wanted it to end as soon as possible and tried to avoid contact with innocent civilians," he said.
Some of the IDF's Paratroopers Brigade also refuted the claims.
A Paratroopers Brigade soldier who also participated in the war called the claims "nonsense". Speaking on condition of anonymity, he said "It is true that in war morality can be interpreted in many different ways, and there are always a few idiots who act inappropriately, but most of the soldiers represented Israel honorably and with a high degree of morality.
"For instance, on three separate occasions my company commander checked soldiers' bags for stolen goods. Those who stole the smallest things, like candy, were severely punished," he said.
"We were forbidden from sleeping in Palestinians' beds even when we had no alternate accommodations, and we didn’t touch any of their food even after we hadn't had enough to eat for two days."
It is a sad day when some soldiers do not adhere to the "rules of engagement" clearly stated and discussed before any military operation such as the Gaza war. However, I am also comforted this/these incidents were not censored, allowed to be made public and that an investigation is now under way. Having served in the IDF years ago I know how important the rules are and how much they are discussed during training. But in spite of the few, the army operates within procedure and training. It is never the intent to inflict harm on anyone that is not a combatant. In this case Hamas, Jihad-Islami, etc.
and finally a Major (res) said" Major (res.) Idan Zuaretz of Givati said "in every war there is a small percentage of problematic soldiers, but we must look at it from a broad perspective and not focus on isolated incidents."
Zuaretz, a company commander, also questioned the integrity of the soldiers who made the controversial claims, saying "if this was such a burning issue for them, why have they remained silent until now? On an ethical and moral level, they were obligated to stop what they claimed had occurred and not wait two months to be heard at some esoteric debate."
JERUSALEM (JTA) -- Israel's military will investigate claims that soldiers did not behave appropriately during the recent military operation in Gaza.
The IDF Military Advocate General, Brig. Gen. Avichai Mendelblit, on Thursday instructed the Criminal Investigation Division of the IDF Military Police to look into the claims made regarding alleged actions of soldiers during Operation Cast Lead, according to the Israel Defense Forces spokesperson's office.
The announcement comes after soldiers at a military academy, the Rabin Preparation Program in Oranim, claimed during a post-operation conference that Israeli soldiers violated rules of engagement. The content of the conference discussions was released Thursday, prompting the announcement of the investigation.
Two major Israeli daily newspapers, Ha'aretz and Ma'ariv, began reporting soldiers' stories on Thursday and announced plans to publish more in their Friday weekend editions.
The soldiers described instances in which soldiers fired too hastily on civilians and indiscriminately destroyed Palestinian property.
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at 09:21 on March 19th, 2009
I'll reconsider this as being realistic when the PLO and the Hamas, investigate their war crimes and terrorism. I find this to be highly political not based on the overall safety of the IDF's soldiers when the main concern going in for Operation Cast Lead, was the potential for a bloodbath of Israeli soldiers.
Now we have the usual blame the victor in Israeli society. What would they prefer? To lose or to have enormous loss of life?
at 10:46 on March 19th, 2009
Good points djsblack,
PLO and Hamas use their people as shields and far worse knowing that they can not win a war with Israel hope that the civilian causalties during a provoked confrontation is high. Then internationally Israel becomes the loser and Hamas wins the war using its people: women, children and men as pawns in their ugly war for Iranian dominance in the region.
They have come to realize that dead Palestinians are better for their cause then dead Israelis.
at 14:09 on March 19th, 2009
Rupert Murdoch, CEO, of News Corporation, said that the West will rise and fall, with Israel. Rather than paraphrase his remarks, I'll post them and the link:
I am not Jewish but............
by Rupert Murdoch
In Europe, men and woman who bear the tattoos of concentration camps today look out on a continent where Jewish lives and Jewish property are under attack - and public debate is poisoned by an anti-Semitism we thought had been dispatched to history's dustbin.
In Iran, we see a regime that backs Hizbullah and Hamas now on course to acquire a nuclear weapon.
In India, we see Islamic terrorists single out the Mumbai Jewish Center in a well-planned and well-coordinated attack that looks like it could be a test run for similar attacks in similar cities around the world.
MOST FUNDAMENTALLY, we see a growing assault on both the legitimacy and security of the State of Israel.
This assault comes from people who make clear they have no intention of ever living side-by-side in peace with a Jewish state - no matter how many concessions Israel might make. The reason for this is also clear: These are men who cannot abide the idea of freedom, tolerance and democracy. They hate Israel for the same reasons they hate us.
As I speak, the flashpoint is Gaza. For months now, Hamas has been raining down rockets on Israeli civilians. Like all terrorist attacks, the aim is to spread fear within free societies, and to paralyze its leaders. This Israel cannot afford. I do not need to tell anyone in this room that no sovereign nation can sit by while its civilian population is attacked.
Hamas knows this better than we do. And Hamas understands something else as well: In the 21st century, when democratic states respond to terrorist attacks, they face two terrible handicaps.
THE FIRST HANDICAP is military. It's true that Israel's conventional superiority means it could flatten Gaza if it wanted. But the Israel Defense Forces - unlike Hamas - are accountable to a democratically chosen government.
No matter which party is in the majority, every Israeli government knows it will be held accountable by its people and by the world for the lives that are lost because of its decisions. That's true for lives of innocent Palestinians caught in the crossfire. And it's also true for the Israeli soldiers who may lose their lives defending their people.
In this kind of war, Hamas does not need to defeat Israel militarily to win a big victory. In fact, Hamas knows that in some ways, dead Palestinians serve its purposes even better than dead Israelis.
In the West we look at this and say, "It makes no sense." But it does make sense.
If you are committed to Israel's destruction, and if you believe that dead Palestinians help you score a propaganda victory, you do things like launch rockets from a Palestinian schoolyard. This ensures that when the Israelis do respond, it will likely lead to the death of an innocent Palestinian - no matter how many precautions Israeli soldiers take.
Hamas gets away with this, moreover, because it does not rule Gaza by the consent of those it claims to represent. It rules by fear and intimidation. It is accountable to no one but itself.
This is the chilling logic of Gaza. And it helps explain why even a strong military power like Israel can find itself at a disadvantage on the ground.
THE SECOND HANDICAP for Israel is the global media war. For Hamas, the images of Palestinian suffering - of people losing their homes, of parents mourning their dead children, of tanks rolling through the streets - create sympathy for its cause.
In a battle marked by street to street fighting, the death of innocents is all but inevitable. That is also true of Gaza. And these deaths have led some to call for Israel to be charged with war crimes by an international tribunal.
But I am curious: Why do we never hear calls for Hamas leaders to be charged with war crimes?
Why, for example, do we hear no calls for human rights investigations into Hamas gunmen using Palestinian children as human shields? Why so few stories on the reports of Hamas assassins going to hospitals to hunt down their fellow Palestinians? And where are the international human rights groups demanding that Hamas stop blurring the most fundamental line in warfare: the distinction between civilian and combatant?
I suspect the answer has to do with the same grim logic that leads Hamas to provoke a military battle it knows it cannot win. Whether Israel is ever found guilty of any war crime hardly matters. Hamas gets a propaganda win simply by having the charge made often and loudly enough.
In this, Israel finds itself in much the same position the United States found itself in Iraq before the surge. There, al-Qaida realized that it was in its interests to provoke sectarian violence between Shia and Sunni - no matter what the cost to innocent Iraqis. That is the nature of terror. And what we are seeing in Gaza is just one front in this much larger war.
Read the rest...............
at 11:12 on March 19th, 2009
That is the problem . The international community still has not come to terms with the new wars that are being waged and the use of no standing armies as such. Everyone is then a potential threat. Terrorism is effective as long as you have monetary support for its cause. Crush the flow of money and you kill its ability to function. More money is coming into the coffers of Hamas from both Iran and the Western countries that they have no problem continuing their terror. They have no desire nor need to win a war by force. In fact, their greatest success is when they lose the fight and win the sympathy of the UN and its cronies.
at 11:19 on March 19th, 2009
Although despicable, it is not the actions of the IDF that makes me despair - it is the extremism of the general Israeli populace that is so disturbing.
You can read it here, look at some of the comments in response to articeles ofHaaretz and Jerusalem Post. This is not a country where the population wants peace - they bay for blood instead.
Now they will likely have Lieberman as Foreign Minister. Take the most rabid extrmist and put him in charge of relating to other countrues and being the face of Israel to the world. It says it all - even the poloticians on Capital Hill who dwrank the Israeli kool aid are stunned.
The actions of an army only reflect the host society's values - and that is the case here. There can be no pretence of a peace process when you have netanyahi supporting settlements, Lieberman as FM and even their proposed head of National Security was denied a visa to enter the US because of his invlovment in anti-US espionage
Let them rant here about how they want peace - but they don't. Their actions betray this as false words, and the will of the Israeli people was evidenced by the election that sees a Netanyahu-Lieberman Knesset as their future.
As they sow, so shall they reap
at 11:31 on March 19th, 2009
Isn't it during the full moon when the werewolves come out?
Just ignore him. He isn't worth the effort.
at 19:26 on March 19th, 2009
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at 20:13 on March 19th, 2009
To the degree and kind of your condemnations and poor attempt at metaphors you miss the fact the Arab Palestinians can't even make peace between themselves nor honor International commitments--so in between your proclamations, invective, and ad-homonym narrative, I'm pleased about the dissension between Palestinians, for their unity would do them, the world, or us no good; exactly who is not using their collective brains?
Debating with you guys is too easy.
The Hamas-Fatah talks have broken down. The only thing they agreed upon is that there would be elections next January. But they couldn't decide upon a program for a joint government.
And the whole issue of recognizing Israel and honoring past agreements was a stickler. How's this for fancy footwork (they are creative): Instead of committing to past agreements, Hamas wanted the new unity government to say it "respected" PLO commitments. Words only.
Earlier this week Egypt sounded out the US and European diplomats regarding whether they would accept a unity government that offered something less than full commitment to PLO agreements. Apparently they would not, or the negotiations would not have ended so soon.
Today the Egyptian negotiators told the Palestinian factions to pack their backs. They may come together again after an Arab summit at the end of March. But possibly not until there's reason to believe there can be resolution of the difficulties, which would mean a long wait.
Waiting for Godot has a better chance at success then the chances of a successful Hamas - Fateh legitimate regime.
Let's just forget for a moment that the Arab Palestinians haven't accomplished anything culturally, economically, physically, nationally, socially, religiously, scientifically, and morally in over 100 years--who exactly owned who or what again?
at 19:27 on March 19th, 2009
Tikun - on this issue you got "owned" I think is American parlance
The powers you report on behalf of have no counters to these facts and you know it - so you run to what? A werewolf!
You follow your brief admirably - but sometimes when beaten you simply need to walk away.
Djsblack? He is like the Gaza border guard - brutal but not so bright. I doubt he lives in SFO as his knuckles dragging would draw attention there. He is a thug - an IDF private doing simply what he is told
Your people voted in Netanyahu
You voted in Lieberman
You continue the settlements, the evictions in East Jerusalem and the wall.
You have spoken - the world heard - and the educated turned their backs on you
We will welcome you back when you apologize for the Gaza and send the Netanyahu-Lieberman partnership back to where it belongs - and that is the middle ages not the Middle East.
at 14:55 on March 19th, 2009
moonwolf,
That is exactly what they said in Hitler's Germany.
at 15:03 on March 19th, 2009
moonwolf,
You quote from Haaretz but forget to tell everyone that Amira Hass is a Palestinian that has often been exposed as a fraud and a liar. But in Israel she is allowed to express her views freely regardless of how much BS may flow.
at 15:15 on March 19th, 2009
Moonwolf,
Last Word. Wow. You lose we win. We have survived worse then you.
at 06:11 on March 20th, 2009
it is sad to read that a human tragedy has turned into a bitter argument who is right and who is wrong..
the fact remains that Israeli soldiers themselves have admitted to atrocities that are not defendable.
at 06:41 on March 20th, 2009
The allegations are unsubstantiated--what is substantiated is that the Arab Palestinians used many women, children, seniors, and "civilians" as suicide bombers during the war.
That's a fact.
"Urban warfare is complicated, disorientating and utterly confusing even in conventional operations. When an enemy, such as Hamas, is willing to dress in civilian clothing, attack from legally protected sites and use civilians as human shields it becomes fiendishly difficult."
at 10:10 on March 21st, 2009
Thanks so much djsblack,
I put this story up in order for people not following Israel all that much to appreciate the openness of our society. The willingness, all to often, at our own expense to publicly share our "dirty" laundry. But with that said and done, once the names of the soldiers have now started to surface it has become apparent that these guys have been active in continually trying to undermine the IDF activities because of their personal political agendas.
Having served years ago in the IDF I know first hand that the vast majority of soldiers go way out of their way to follow protocol and the IDF "rules of engagement". This is not a rag tag army. But a well disciplined citizen army. There will always be a few rotten apples but they are the exception to the rule.
at 10:19 on March 21st, 2009
Hi Amadd,
The facts are that a few soldiers have made some accusations. Besides, the apparent political motives of the few soldiers that have been named, we are very cautious as to their reliability. But the IDF is investigating. I am proud of the willingness to investigate publicly any possible lack of discipline during the chaotic Gaza war.
The numbers of civilian casualties are now no where near the originally inflated numbers given by Hamas "leadership". It is so difficult when fighting a terror organization with its use of civilians as shields. This is of course the intention. Hamas knows all too well that they do not need to win just to ensure as many casulaities as possible in order for the rest of the world to condem Israel. Clever but this new engagement of non-uniform combatants makes for the need to create new laws of confrontation.