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Israeli-Palestinian conflict: we can, we must, and we will.



With Obama in the White House, possibly Netanyahu heading the Israeli Knesset and George Mitchell in between, now is a good time to pursue the peace process again. Yet the prospects have never looked dimmer.
Peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians has always been full of such paradoxes. After both Clinton and Bush put the conflict on the back burner till the end of their presidencies, the disagreements over a final resolution deteriorated almost to a point of no return!
Agreement is impossible at present. Yet the outlines of a final agreement "are well known and have been more or less agreed..... for the past decade". This week's edition of The Economist spelt them out. Israel would return to the 1967 borders (with minor adjustments and land swaps, including the three biggest settlement blocks), Jerusalen would be carefully divided so that both countries could use it as their capital, there would be international oversight of the main religious sites, and a symbolic right of return for refugees (with a small number returning) while the rest would receive compensation. Palestine would be demilitarised but sovereign, with an international force (probably NATO) securing borders, and a road and railway to link between Gaza and the West bank.
Agreement is possible:
It is ironic that both sides to the conflict have informally agreed to these. Both sides are willing to overcome these so called sticking points. The BBC some time ago pointed out that Hamas' rejection of Israel, enshrined in its so called Charter, is a mirage! The Charter was written by a senior maverick Hamas official who never had the confidence of its rulers and, in fact, the Charter was never ratified. It acts as a useful 'windup' to Israeli supporters. The Guardian and The New York Times both recently covered interviews with two of Hamas' most prominent leaders, Khaled Meshaal (secretary-general) and Ismail Haniyeh (prime minister). They pointed out that the two have "edged towards meeting" (The Economist's words) the three basic conditions required of Hamas (Israel's right to exist, accepting the PLO signed agreements, and the two-state solution). The Financial Times has always advised Hamas to hold out recognition of Israel as a bargaining counter, just as Fatah did when it negotiated the dropping of the PLO Charter earlier.
Ironically, seventy-five per cent of Israelis and most Palestinians still support the notion of a two-state solution. As The Economist says: " Hamas' popularity is based not on its call for Israel's annihalation but on its reputation for honesty in contrast to Fatah's for corruption"! Most Palestinians, too, want unity between Fatah and Hamas so a broad government comprising of both parties can be created.
What we all need to do (and George Mitchell has the skills and sensitivity to do this) is to get behind the posturing and political rhetoric to what all sides are really prepared to do to achieve a lasting peace. Of course it will not be easy. The sticking point in all conflicts is loss of face: both sides have stuck their necks out in the past. They will have to climb down over these issues, and that is never easy. Colin Rubenstein, writing in yesterday's The Australian, points out that the "Israeli public has has always strongly supported a resolution to the conflict as long as it leads to genuine peace.... Most analysts agree that Netanyahu, who has explicitly refused to rule out a future Palestinian state, would make such a deal if he could. But Israelis are increasingly disillusioned as to the feasibility of any such agreement".
Rubenstein concludes that the differences for the peace process between Netanyahu's Likud Party and Livni's Kadima Party is more about perception and tactics than substance.
Sticking point:
The real sticking point, until now, has been the power and thinking of the Jewish lobby in the United States. That has changed dramatically over the past six months. Previously, in Jewish-American circles, the idea of talking to Hamas was taboo. But it is no longer the case.
The Economist reminds readers of an influential but so far unpublished letter, written by a group of senior bipartisan foreign-policy veterans (Zbigniew Brazezinski, Breant Scowcroft and Lee Hamilton among others), demanding that Obama appoint an even handed special envoy (done), spell out a clear vision for Palestine (coming soon), and draw Hamas into the talks (not so easy).
In the past, it has been the powerful, old pro-Israel lobby group, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), that has backed Israel whatever the circumstances. It is still powerful. But things are changing. A new group has appeared on the block, calling the shots now. Called J Street, it is vigorously "pro-Israel, pro-peace", is backed by younger American Israelis and Palestinians and is much more likely to see things from the Palestinian point of view. J Street has outspokenly called for Israel and its supporters to engage with Hamas, and is supported by other groups such as Americans for Peace. I personally think this break with the old past of unthinking support for whatever the Israelis did, regardless of the consequences, is a real breakthrough. Almost as dramatic as the demolition of the wall would be!
Tough love:
David Milliband, the UK Foreign Minister, on the BBC this week, pointed out that there is a large swathe of both Arabs and Jews who now support the basic parameters agreed at the Beirut Summit in 2002. Our own senior foreign-policy veteran, Chis Patten (formerly the last Governor of Hong Kong) has called on Obama to finally be tough with Israel over the illegal settlements (as was the senior George Bush) by "squeezing it into giving the Palestinians a fair deal" (Economist's words). Certainly, someone needs to call a stop to these illegal settlements and to make it clear to the Israelis they will no longer get away with such infringements of Palestinian rights.
But many gloomsters think the two state solution is too late already. Yet as The Economist points out, in the US, there is "a new president, with a new team, new tactics, and a different set of pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian backers, including Jewish ones, back home". I believe Obama has the courage and the capacity to be blunt with Israel, at last. That is the way to get the two state solution.
"Now is the time for all good people (especially in the US) to come to the aid of the party!"
Crowd Power
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Most RecentMost Recommended Comments (61)
at 23:27 on February 13th, 2009
Let's hope they're right about the Hamas charter. The time has come to talk, now that both parties have shown they will do whatever it takes to survive.
Thanks for posting this article.
at 23:34 on February 13th, 2009
I think it's going to need some deft footwork by George Mitchell but he has an excellent reputation. His patience over the Northern Ireland stubborn bigots was phenomenal!
at 01:52 on February 14th, 2009
Will we though?
at 05:50 on February 14th, 2009
What, Paschen? Come to the aid of the party? Well, at least it shows a huge shift and, once people shift their allegiances, they think usually through different perceptions. I'm an optimist about this.
at 02:58 on February 14th, 2009
Very good post this.
I read yesterday that a Hamas official, when asked about the possible return of political prisoners within the context of a cease-fire said "The prisoners are another issue". That is very encouraging.
There seem to be signs that a stable cease-fire may be agreed upon this weekend. Let's hope that it happens, because nothing, Jerusalem, the prisoners, shaping eventual borders included, will be resolved as long as there is violence.
As for Obama's chances, I have often read that he has, as you say "The courage and the capacity to be blunt with Israel, at last". I would agree with that. He seems to be pragmatic, he knows what must be done, and he will not be afraid to say so.
But all his efforts also need the support, at least tacit, of Iran and other actors. Because if they want to louse him up, they have the power to do so. So peace in Gaza involves working on a lot of other issues too. It's a monumental task.
Let's wish him, Israel, and Palestine, luck.
at 05:42 on February 14th, 2009
I have to admit that the weakness of my piece (! - yes!) is that I did not really think through the issue of Iran, partly because it's too complex for my simple mind! What excited me was the blockage caused by the Jewish lobby is weakening. It is likely that Syria will sign with Israel soon and that the more progessive Arab states will.....well, you can finish that sentence for me! But djermano has some interesting insights.
at 06:09 on February 14th, 2009
Hi Gerry! Please don't think I was trying to point out a weakness in your post. Your post did not include the wider field, it made no attempt to do so, and that's perfectly legitimate. After all, one post cannot, and doesn't even necessarily have to, bring all the elements into play, particularly on an issue like this!
I am only too pleased to have a crack at finishing the sentence :)
"It is likely that Syria will sign with Israel soon and that the more progressive Arab states will.....do their utmost to help and encourage all the parties involved to find a long-lasting and peaceful issue to this issue.
Thanks!
at 03:53 on February 14th, 2009
The only reason Iran has a hostility to Israel...is because of Israels hostility to Iran... I think Iran will be very supportive of the process, but this whole thing is revolving around the power struggle which still captivates them in the Middle East. We are talking about balancing the Atomic Bomb power of nations.
All of the Middle Eastern Countries except Israel are without a military deterrent. George Mitchell must be aware of this. No it is more than Palestines Statehood at stake.....it is about real security in the Middle East.....and that does not include the US....who supports Israel..with its Atomic Aplomb....
Why should Israel hold such power over all the Middle East? If they want Iran to stop its nuclear program....shouldn't Israel also follow in step by dismantling too? If not then Iran has a right to have its nuclear capacity....
Obama must realize he will get no where in the Israeli and Palestinian peace talks without working out the nuclear issue in the Middle East. This is real stuff.
Think about all the rich oil resource countries in the middle east and they have no nuclear deterrent from Superpowers who have no Oil resources. They saw what happened to Iraq...they are going to be pursuing their own bomb.....or to agree to keep the Middle East nuclear free.....which means Israel must step up to the plate and dismantle its French made hard water facility.
Once that issue is resolved there is more of a chance for peace to be realized with Israel and Palestine. Israel must discuss its reasons for keeping Palestinains and Arabs out of their Democracy. They must determine what kind of Democracy they have? Democracy is not known to exclude people in its real definition.....but the Israelis fear they will loose Democratic control of Israel....so they follow this type of Apartheid Democracy for Israel.
Just what is Israel? Whereas Hamas has a real Democracy... I have not heard it will exclude Jews from living in Palestine....although the topic may not have been mentioned...certainly Jews probably fear more to live in Palestine, than Palestinians living in Israel.
If they agree to a two State solution.....is that really a solution? A real solution would be to return lands and stop occupying right? And what about the issue of changing swords for jobs? There can not be co-existence without work and jobs being created...to support their new States. I have an idea to build manmade land off the coast of Israel...for both Palestinians and Israeli's as a project of Peace for them. This would be bigger than the creation of the Egyptian Pyramids...........Because it will mean so much more....because of it being the symbol and effort of work for the peoples both Israelis and Palestinianst to achieve peace there.
Obama I am certain has no clue to the issues I have mentioned....because the Mainstream Media does not mention any of this......except innuendo's about a two State solution. There are real issues that need to be addressed.....to bring sight and vision to the future to end this protracted 60 years + of blindness.
I have faith it is achievable..... Thanks for your article Gerry.
Rev. Jermano
at 04:24 on February 14th, 2009
:) "Obama I am certain has no clue to the issues I have mentioned..". Oh, so here's where we learn that Djermano is more informed about the Middle East than the President of the United States!! Where do you think he gets his briefings from? CNN? Djermano, we all know the issues involved. What you're talking about here is nothing new and it's no secret for anyone, and it's certainly no secret for Obama either.
More seriously though, the issues you quite correctly raised are exactly those which need to be addressed as I implied (Iran), and I'm sure that Obama and Mitchell are more than aware of them. Let's wish them luck....and I, like you, also have faith.
Thanks
at 05:35 on February 14th, 2009
benefit of the doubt proves he knows nothing, or they would have solved this issue years ago. Never assume anything Fripouille. I think I know more than Obama on many issues..
And yes....lets wish them more than luck....face reality and make it work.
Rev. Jermano
at 05:47 on February 14th, 2009
Djermano, thanks. I think you are absolutely right about the Atomic Aplomb! I keep thinking about how gross it is that the bomb is never mentioned in any discussion. People kind of pretend Israeli does not have one. It is quite outrageous, and will surely have to be brought in to the calculations.
at 06:13 on February 14th, 2009
You are welcome gerry. Mainstream media...ABC, CBS, NBC, etc...they never mention the Atomic bomb imbalance of power in the middle east. Why? Because they don't want lots of people to know this. Why did Saddam want nuclear weapons.....because of this imbalance... So many Superpowers in the world with Atomic Deterrance can simply take for the taking in a Middle East with them having no means of stopping them. Israel got its nuke facility from France....and they use that as their billy club......with US support .....and US interest being the Oil of course........causes this imbalance.......It's one of the reasons binLadin objected to US military forces in Saudi Arabia. He perceived it as the US velvet occupation of Saudi Arabia..since S.A. has no nuclear deterance as well.
All this leads to blaming America for supporting the imbalance.....by not getting Israel to denuke itself. All the wars, and conflicts conceivably were about Israel's nuke domination, and all the other blame excuses levied against Iraq and Iran were sideshows to the real problem in the region.
If the Arabs have the bomb.....it is a new Middle East.....no longer to be pushed around by Israel and the USA. They are the richest countries in the world, and yet the least secured...by not having nuclear power? And so then the debate becomes a double standard...to how the US can justify itself having the nuclear bomb....while it is not the richest country in the world?
The showdown is coming......and they will either accept real peace or the imposed peace....which they will give the nod to Iran to keep its nuclear program... More than likely they want Iran to keep it....to justify more fear in American voters....so they support the rapers called the Military Industrial Complex.....which keeps US tax dollars doling out to the Middle East.
Then its getting a deal with Israel and Palestine.
Happy Valentines Day.
Rev. Jermano
at 06:32 on February 14th, 2009
Iran shall not have the bomb, and I shall support every effort to stop it happening. I hope it shall be possible using diplomacy, but if it isn't, I shall support all the military action that will surely be used to stop it.
This is not a school playground "Waaa snif, he has one so I want one too". Not only that, that logic means kids of twelve have as much "right" to a gun as adults!
Present-day Iranian publicly stated policy includes the wish that Israel "Be wiped off the map". Well, they shall not be allowed to do it. Period.
Iran's posession or not of the bomb is not a pre-requisite for peace in Israel/Palestine. Saying it is is no more than ridiculous wishful thinking and an obstruction to peace.
Thanks.
at 08:05 on February 14th, 2009
Hello asidepoint,
Yes, I agree, the fact that Israel posesses nuclear weapons is indeed a threat, as are Iranian efforts to build them, and I for one would not say otherwise. My point though is that instead of escalating the nuclear arms race in that region it would be better to de-escalate conflict and establish a situation of peace that could even lead to Israel being persuaded to dismantle its weapons in the future. Iran having the bomb, or even being close to it, would be a serious escalation in the terror stakes, and that's why it's not going to happen. I do not believe Israel would use a nuclear device in conventional warfare and nor do most other people.
Let's rachet the conflict down, not up...
As for wipe out/vanish, I do not know Farsi, (do you?) but I happen to be a translator and know that words have synonyms, so a translation depends on the context and your choice. There is no 'true' translation of what he said, even more so given that Farsi has less synonyms than english (according to my research just now) and so the real meaning he wanted to put over has to be found elsewhere. Also, the term he used may well have been deliberately open to interpretation. Whatever else he may be, he is a fine orator...
Thanks
at 09:17 on February 14th, 2009
Thanks for taking the trouble to find the information asidepoint, very elegant of you.
Although I really and sincerely do find it hard to believe that Persian is so poor in idioms that it does not have an idiom that would mean "wipe out" as in "eliminate", with all due respect to the Professor's point of view. (He does not appear to be a translator moreover, but a Historian, whatever..). Translators argue about this kind of stuff all the time lol!
But the important thing is, as I'm sure you'll agree, that we wind the conflict down, not up.
at 17:32 on February 14th, 2009
ah....but it is the issue....and you know it is Fripouille. By the way are you French? I wonder? Iran and any country that does not have nuclear weapons has a right to protect itself from countries who do have nuclear weapons. It is a matter of truth to the militarist machine who advocate all countries have a right to defend themselves....
Kids younger than twelve get and use guns.....so I don't know where you live......but kids blow away kids and teachers all the time in the USA.....nothing new here.... America is one of the most liberal countries when it comes to getting your hands on a gun.....Yes indeed America invented the Bomb......did they not? America created Israel.....not Israel's doing....
This is another twist by Israeli's; thinking they obtained their own autonomy. The US granted them something they never had a right to grant. Might as well call Israel another State of the United States than consider it is a real viable authentic country. It could be suggested it's but another occupation force...simply stationed to militarily extract the Oil resources in the great Middle Eastern Region....
Rev.
at 19:50 on February 14th, 2009
I'll have a lash at this load of bollocks ... somebody has to.
djermano, can you possibly express a more ignorant point of view regarding the creation of Israel? The state of Israel was declared to exist by a bunch of UN beauracrats following the breakdown of imperial control of Palestine. The state of Israel was actually created when it was carved out of the remains of the Ottoman Empire under a British mandate BY AN ARMY OF JEWISH VOLUNTEERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD when they were attacked by Arab armies from Jordan, Syria/Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Some of the volunteer 'secret army' were from USA, and funds came from the large Jewish communities across the Atlantic NE. But money and manpower also came from Canada, UK, South Africa, India, Latin America, many European states, and of course from Sephardic Jews who had lived in Palestine for generations. Most of the men and materiel from abroad had to be smuggled into Palestine, as the British authorities were doing everything in their power to stop or slow the process. Finally when the Irgun and others resorted to terror, Britain began to withdraw, throwing her considerable weight behind Jordan.
Please note that this ad hoc army was formed of mainly Jewish volunteers who were either stateless as a result of the shoa catastrophe, or citizens of one of the countries mentioned above, or indigenous to the region. (not all Jews left 'Palestine' in the diaspora.) Your suggestion that the "USA created Israel" is the highest insult to every volunteer soldier who fought to create Israel, and who did so despite ambivalence or outright hostility from their own respective governments.
For more information see Canadian professor David Bercuson's book "The Secret Army."
Please, let's not give America any more credit than it deserves.
at 07:03 on February 15th, 2009
Yellow Guitar....sounds like you are a little out of tune.......Let's not get on the name calling YG.....
http://www.jewishpost.com/news/Israel-60-Years-of-Statehood.html.........
On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition also by the United States of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.
Since Russia and the US were the first to recognize Israel tells volumes about the authority they had in granting it. That authority was recognized as the Atomic Bomb.... The US proved it worked by targeting an already defeated Japan...killing thousands of innocent Japanese...making Harry Truman a member to Hitlers Holocaust Museum....Except it was the Japanese Holocaust instead. Strange that Truman did not use the bomb on Germany? Because afterall many prominient Americans were supporting Hitlers campaign...Strange to why Truman did not use it on Russia to stop Stalins Red Advancement.....because he would be killing Jews....who were essentially communists.
US gets the bomb: July 16, 1945 in the lab at Los Alamos
http://history1900s.about.com/cs/robertoppenheimer/p/oppenheimer.htm?terms=fermi+lab...
August 1949
The Soviet Union detonated its first atomic device on August 29, 1949. The event surprised American nuclear scientists--who hadn't expected it so soon--and shook the American public's sense of security.
http://raptureready.com/time/rap31c.html.....
Russia had been working with American scientists while 2 years later after Israel was recognized by Russia and the USA, Russia got its bomb.
In 1947, the British notified the United Nations that they were discontinuing the Mandate and it (UN) would have to take over the problem. Truman, harassed by Zionists who were trying to get into the Oval Office constantly, embraced the problem to the great relief and delight of the British. Even as a Senator, Truman had demonstrated a pro-Jew/Zionist/Israel attitude though he admitted openly the Jews were a troublesome lot and took up much of his time. His surprising rise to become Vice Presidential candidate in Roosevelt's fourth term was engineered by powerful Jews in the Democratic Party -- another master stroke of genius by the Zionists who were sure that Roosevelt would not complete his fourth term!
Truman's recognition of Israel was vigorously opposed by Secretary of State General George C. Marshall, the man who master-minded the assault on Europe against Hitler. He resigned from the Administration when Truman rejected his warning that a State of Israel would bring war and unrest throughout the Middle East. Historians and their publishers suppressed the facts regarding Marshall's resignation since it would expose the treachery of Jews in manipulating The White House. Given Truman's pro-Jew stance, it is more than likely that the reason he approved the dropping of the Atomic Bomb over Hiroshima was because the scientific leaders of the Manhattan Project were Jews! They privately called it 'the Jewish Bomb'! And they wanted it used as a statement to the World as to what they were capable of doing. It was the ultimate weapon of retribution!
http://jewwatch.com/jew-references-balfour.html.......
Rev. Jermano
at 13:32 on February 15th, 2009
jermano,
There is no need for name-calling. Your post lays bare exactly what you are. Your reference to the 'jewwatch.com' website only confirms it.
at 22:04 on February 15th, 2009
And just what am I Yellow Guitar? A guy that wants Peace. A guy that wants Israel and Palestine admit who they are...and acknowledge their differences. The website has information that I found to support my position......Its the first I have seen the website....and what if there was a Palestinianwatch.com......? Is that name calling too?
You on the other hand give no supporting links to your writing. Your only defense is name calling .....me ignorant, and your whole twisted thinking in making it appear I have done something wrong...when you assert your nonsensical logic.
You know what YG...name calling is a bunch of guys like you who can't admit you have flaws and errors to your very subject base....of understanding debate and its rules..... You can never claim you won....except by diminishing someone as a name caller, when you were inflicting it yourself.
Strum another chord....you sound like shit.
Rev. Jermano
at 00:15 on February 16th, 2009
djermano:
Och, now you've gone and hurt my feelings. I have no idea what you are exactly, but I recommend medication if you really believe the stuff your posting.
at 04:46 on February 16th, 2009
Got any more original lyrics? Your spelling is way off.... it is Ouch....and its you're, not your. .. Maybe you should stop taking yours....its affecting your sense of reason.
Rev.
at 08:24 on February 16th, 2009
That was 'och' in the Glaswegian sense mate, as in 'och, you're a regular Jerry Seinfeld.' But you probably figured out it was said facetiously. We Scots don't have any feelings. We're too busy trying to take over the world. Maybe you can come up with a theory to prove that?
at 14:33 on February 15th, 2009
You said, "This is another twist by Israeli's; thinking they obtained their own autonomy. The US granted them something they never had a right to grant. Might as well call Israel another State of the United States than consider it is a real viable authentic country. It could be suggested it's but another occupation force...simply stationed to militarily extract the Oil resources in the great Middle Eastern Region...."
Just wishful thinking but Factually incorrect. I think that when you stop with the propaganda and get with the peace program you will come to the truth. Please do some reading about the region. May I suggest a wonderful best seller on the NY Times list called Power, Faith and Fantasy: America in the Middle East from 1776 to the present by Michael Oren. After the read I think you will be more careful about what you say regarding its accuracy. Be Well,
Steve
at 22:34 on February 15th, 2009
Thanks Steve...but I have no links or ability to get that book here in PR China.... It sounds like propaganda to me...because in 1776 that was a time of the founding of the USA...and it was a time of buying and selling black slaves.....and it was a time of buying and selling Opium....into China.....by the USA and Britian....It was a time when the British was controlling India to grow Opium, it was a time when the US was growing opium too in Turkey's Ottoman Empire......it was a time when that drug was the biggest profit scheme going....and other countries were getting in on the trade as well..namely France, Russia....and Germany.....Germany was busy working to legitimize the drug....into morphine, and codine discovered by Dr. Fredrich Sueter a German. Certainly rich Jews were in on the business...and Germany represented a threat to the Wests/Jewish recreational profit interests plans......Which essentially was the real reasons to why WWI broke out and in short haste ended so quickly..... The Arch Duke was killed for trying to make Germany a member of the Ottoman Empire....which would have taken growing rights away from the US...since they were not an Ottoman Member.
Israel's subsequent existence.....has been a Bible story that in itself in Old Testament Readings has been a never ending turmoil of war as the same reveals today....regurgitated from the Old Testament.....and then Jesus came .....no Jew listened....The Jews used Democracy by voting to kill the Son of God. Makes me really think I love Jews for doing that? But I know Jesus is all forgiving, and his way and ressurrection defeated not only the Old Testament....but defeated the hate conspired against the Jews.......It is just that the Jews hate not being hated in life.....and is why this War in the Middle East continues....Its about war....and arms,...and jobs for the military,....and extracting oil from the Middle Eastern Countries for the sake of the Jew Empire...Forget the idea that anyone else's religion has their own Religious State ideals, or desires for their own Land. I myself strive to have DOMLAND.....where I don't need to be forced to pay taxes that go to fucking Israel so they can kill people.......So they can continue to make a mockery of my Lord Jesus Christ......I just don't want to be in this world with you guys......who only talk about killing....and who you think you are always right all the time.....and go off and kill and bomb people for a protracted month taking the life of innocent people in Gaza...And don't tell me you people had nothing to do with the lying war in Iraq....that killed thousands of innocent people.....and don't tell me Israel had no secret hand in the Plot to kill thousands of Americans on 911......supported by you Jew people and the Bush Administration.......I do my best to instill the Lords request for civility and Nonviolence......but frankly it will prove in my dying days that I can only pass on as the Lord did.....because I refuse to Fight you FUCKERS.
Now you can blame me for name calling.........forgive me......I too am not perfect....you perfectionist SOB.
Rev. Jermano
at 00:29 on February 16th, 2009
Great. Another antisemitic rant in the name of Jesus Christ. Like the church doesn't have enough black eyes already. Thanks Rev.
at 04:54 on February 16th, 2009
I thought Jews could do that? The Church is full of lying hypocrites, guns and arms dealers, murderers, Pedophile; Gay Priests......and alcohlics... Don't accuse me of giving them a black eye...I don't believe in their organized lies....I stick strictly to the Lord and The New Testament....that's all I need. ...thank you. So how about us ending this feud....and get on with living? Wish you the Best......God Bless...
Rev. Jermano
at 08:57 on February 16th, 2009
Jermano:
A bright light draws a lot of bugs. You're proof of that. But by God so am I. I'm just glad there's room for one more alcoholic hypocrite...
Och, alright then mate, let's put our differences aside and move on, if only for the sake of the other poor souls on NP that have to wade through this shite to get to the news. Cheers for the conversation.
at 11:45 on February 14th, 2009
"The only reason Iran has a hostility to Israel...is because of Israels hostility to Iran.."
With this premise, you have moved the discussion out of reality completely and into a systemf of projection.
This is so completely without substantiation in history. So much of the hostility to Jews and Christians is right there in the Koran and can be seen in the history of the treatment of Jews and Christians in lands conquered, not "voted in", by Muslim armies. It is well-known...I have to shake my head.
One very great reason for the hostility of Muslim states to Israel comes from the Koran. All land once conquered, having become Muslim, must remain in Muslim hands. And, if infidels should take back Muslim land, all Muslims must come to the aid of those particular Muslims to extricate the non-believers from that Muslim land.
And, if, as happened in the case of Anwar Sadat, a Muslim makes peace with an infidel nation, then that Muslim is a traitor and that is why the Egyptian members of the Arab Brotherhood gunned Anwar Sadat down.
And, it doesn't matter if the land in question was historicaly non-Muslim and that force was used in the conversion, by the way.
at 22:49 on February 15th, 2009
Thanks for your comments: though I'm not clear how they advance the resolution of the conflict!