Netanyahu and Abbas must define Israel boundary

by YankeeJim | September 15, 2010 at 03:04 am
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The settlements: “The settlements are on territory Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war and are deemed by the World Court to be illegal under international law.”

Does Israel recognize the World Court? Does the United States recognize the World Court? When land is seized in war, under what conditions must the winner give it back?

“The International Court of Justice (French: Cour internationale de justice; commonly referred to as the World Court or ICJ) is the primary judicial organ of the United Nations. It is based in the Peace Palace in The Hague, Netherlands. Its main functions are to settle legal disputes submitted to it by states and to give advisory opinions on legal questions submitted to it by duly authorized international organs, agencies, and the UN General Assembly. The ICJ should not be confused with the International Criminal Court, which potentially also has global jurisdiction.”

It seems to me that since the UN established Israel that this court would be observed as having some interpretative jurisdiction on the subject of settlements on land won in war.

“Mideast leaders 'getting down to business' on second day of talks Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas continue discussions in Jerusalem

JERUSALEM — Israeli and Palestinian leaders are "getting down to business" in tackling the key issues at the heart of their conflict, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Wednesday.

But Clinton gave no indication that the sides are any closer to resolving the most immediate stumbling block to newly relaunched peace talks: a Palestinian threat to quit the negotiations if Israel doesn't extend a curb on West Bank settlement construction.

Clinton is in Jerusalem for a second day of talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, a day after meeting the leaders at a summit in Egypt.

Addressing reporters, Clinton said they already have "begun to grapple with the core issues" in their conflict. But she made no mention of the settlement dispute.

Netanyahu will first meet separately with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Abbas will join them in the afternoon for three-way talks that will also be attended by Washington's Middle East envoy George Mitchell.

The two leaders failed in talks Tuesday to find a compromise over the settlements, but Mitchell said the pair had discussed several core issues that split the two sides and said that they were convinced they could reach a deal within a year.

A 10-month Israeli moratorium on new housing construction in West Bank settlements expires on Sept. 30 and Palestinians have said they would quit the U.S.-brokered talks if building resumes.

Mitchell said after meetings in the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh that he believed they were "moving in the right direction overall."

Settlements, violence complicate talks
The status of Jerusalem, the fate of Palestinian refugees, the borders of a future Palestinian state and security arrangements are the main issues that the two leaders would have to resolve to secure a permanent peace deal.

This latest round of direct talks was relaunched at the start of September after a 20-month hiatus.

Israeli media reported that Netanyahu may fly to Washington early next week, with speculation that U.S. President Barack Obama may get involved to try to resolve the settlement impasse.

Netanyahu, whose coalition government is dominated by pro-settler parties, has said he would not extend the freeze but could limit the scope of building in some settlements.

Palestinians say the settlements, built on land they want for a state, would deny them a viable and contiguous country. The settlements are on territory Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war and are deemed by the World Court to be illegal under international law.

Slideshow: Mideast clashes during peace talks (on this page)

The talks could also be derailed by continued violence. Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip fired a rocket and two mortar bombs into Israel on Wednesday, the Israeli army said.”

It is all about defining the boundary. Abbas must give and Netanyahu must give to define the boundary.

“Israel's previous government built or issued bids for some 9,000 homes for Israelis in Jerusalem and the West Bank, despite its promise to pursue a peace deal with the Palestinians, settlement monitors said Monday, summarizing Ehud Olmert's three years as prime minister.

The Israeli watchdog groups Peace Now and Ir Amim urged President Barack Obama to step in quickly and pressure Israel's new prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, to halt further settlement expansion, particularly in the areas of Jerusalem the Palestinians want for their future capital.

"The more time the international community and the Obama administration will require to generate a political process, the more adamant they need to be to save Israel from itself, because we are losing the two-state solution," said Daniel Seidemann of Ir Amim, a group that promotes coexistence in Jerusalem.

Netanyahu supports continued construction in settlements, opposes a division of Jerusalem and has not accepted the notion of a Palestinian state. His positions could lead to growing friction with the international community, though he has said he is reviewing policy.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas insisted Monday that a settlement freeze is a prerequisite for resuming peace talks with Israel. Abbas' year of negotiations with Olmert ended inconclusively.

Abbas also rejected Israeli demands that Palestinians not only recognize the state of Israel — as Abbas and others have — but recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

"Name yourself, it's not my business," he said. "All I know is that there is the state of Israel, in the borders of 1967, not one centimeter more, not one centimeter less. Anything else, I don't accept."

Abbas' comments drew an angry response from Israel. "This is more evidence that the Palestinians are not interested in true peace with Israel," said Ofer Akunis, a lawmaker in Netanyahu's Likud Party.

Since capturing the West Bank and east Jerusalem in the 1967 Mideast War, Israel has built homes for about 470,000 Israelis there, including some 190,000 who moved to east Jerusalem.”

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3
nanute

Does Israel recognize the World Court? Does the United States recognize the World Court? In this particular case, the answer is no.

2
t k kidwai

More important than recognition is honouring the decisions of the World Court.How US imperialists have undermined UN and security council is an open secret.Even if there were no UN,nothing would have substantially changed.

2
Piobar

I agree with you on most of this, however, I do not think the weakness of the UN can be laid solely at the feet of the USA. Indeed, it is an out dated, bureaucratic entity, more concerned with keeping up appearances and avoiding personal accountability. The US, imperialism aside, as I am not willing to pass judgement on that, is only one of many MANY countries that has come to the conclusion that the UN needs to reshape itself to match the needs of the modern world, or to fade into obsolescence. It is a collection of old men sitting around, bickering with each other, and trying to pass the buck. That is no longer an option, it cheapens the ideals of the UNited Nations, and prevents it from being taken seriously.

0
YankeeJim

Israel was attacked  by Egypt. Egypt lost and Israel kept some land spoils of war. A compromise is for Israel to keep its extended border and to be required to permit half occupancy in the settlements set aside for Arabs.



3
nanute

Jim, Using this logic, the US should have been able to keep Germany, Japan and Italy. Israel does have a legitimate claim to be recognized as a State by the Palestinians. Continuing the settlements in questionable territory is not part of the solution. Both sides are going to have to make significant compromises to current thinking, which will most likely not happen, and derail efforts at a solution. I could be wrong, but historically the facts indicate otherwise.

1
YankeeJim

I think that we may have picked up some islands and the right to base troops in Japan and Germany. We're still there.

1
nanute

Point well taken; however, our presence in Japan and Germany does not include control of the countries independence. The islands, not sure about. The inhabitants of the islands probably enjoy the "occupation."

0
YankeeJim

Oh, we blew some up testing nukes.

2
Piobar

it depends on the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 />Islands in question, many of whom only appreciate the US military presence as it provides a buffer from other, hostile states. This goes for the nations with US military installations as well. 

In Japan, US troops who commit crimes escape to bases, and get transfered out quite frequently, never facing any form of justice, and as such, their presence is not at all appreciated by the Japanese authorities, or victims. It is the unfortunate nature of the beast, militaries around the world need at least a few people of dubious morals, they are effective tools. Luckilly most of the soldiers there are not criminally inclined, if they were, the US would be under pressure to close the bases. But being an ally, they help to give Japan an added sense of security from neighbouring countries like North Korea or China, who are not known for their love of the Japanese. In South Korea, the US provide deterance against aggression from the North.

In Germany, US presence had been an added protection against the Warsaw Pact nations surrounding it, as had the British, Canadian, and other bases. The bases of Britain and the US are now simply useful staging grounds for NATO opporations, which Germany, as an ally, usually supports. Feelings tend to be mixed among the people within the countries, it is the governments or puppet regimes who have the most to gain from continued "occupation." I have heard US military pressence likened to Herpes, that once you have it, it never goes away. I think there are more benefits in many cases, that this judgement fails to acknowledge. It is a mixed blessing to some, and a God-send to others.

However you look at it though, it is a world apart from the Palestinian-Israeli relationship. Israeli soldiers are not their to help defend a now weakened one time adversary, but to further their nations interests. While you cannot deny the fact that Israel is justified to some extent in their concern over their national security, it is equally true that the Palestinians are justified in their disdain of the foreign troops protecting those who continue to eat up their lands, and subjugate them in response to a war that they did not start. Syria, Jordan, Egypt, invaded, Palestine was not even considered an independent nation and did not have a military of its own. From the outside, it is easier for us to draw conclusions about responsibility, and lay blame. But we are not the ones who are afraid a suicide bomber will get onto a school bus with our child on board, or that an air strike will be called against the hospital where our wife or daughter is giving birth. Both parties are doing what they think they must to survive, and as such can justify much of their hostility. But the continued bloodshed needs to stop, or neither side will succeed. There is only death and misery down the current path.

The conflict is used by enemies of Israel to justify demands for the destruction of that state, the expulsion or extermination of its people. The allies of Israel use it to justify the mistreatment of Muslims, and paint all with the same brush, whether a member of Hezbollah, an Iranian Imam, or a Bengali doctor taking a vacation. The fact that they are of differing nationalities, differing branches of Islam, and have differing political ideals ignored or intentionally swept under the table. An Iranian missile, carrying a nuclear warhead, will not discriminate based on race, religion, age, or gender.

What is needed now is a shift of mindset, from what separates Palestinians and Israelis, to their common interests and benefits. Both believe in the same God, as do the Christians also living in the area. Both sides have faced violence and hostility at the hands of the other. Both sides have broken international laws. Both sides feel that their only hope of survival is to continue fighting. But the game has changed. The enemies of yesterday are no more. The new threat, from outside, half a continent away, is more powerful. Stand together for peace, or be destroyed not only by each other, but by others looking to gain influence and power. That is why the peace talks have resumed, and that is why this time, the petty squabbles need to be set aside. If they are not, the talks will fail again, as so often before, but this time, the level of distruction will be much, much higher.

 

1
nanute

Piobar,  Very thoughtful, and well said. It makes me wonder if Israel is actually furthering it's national security interests by occupying the territories. I'm not saying one way or another if the behaivor is justifiable, just whether the action makes Israel more secure in the long run. I suspect not.

1
t k kidwai

".....In the eyes of Israel giving up even an inch of occupied territories is an enormous sacrifice......"

"What has gained far less attention and sympathy is the sacrifices of of the palestenian people.....Up untill 1948,the Palestenian people lived in the whole land of Palestine/Israel....the division of the country along the lines of pre-1967 border would leave the Palestenians with 22 percent of what they view as their original land...."Tanya Reinhart,Israel/Palestine.

Success of negotiations is possible if Palestenians make another sacrifice of giving up remaining 22 percent land to Israel.

 

3
tikun

  There was never a Palestinian people. Not one Muslim living in this sparsely populated area saw themselves  as such but rather saw themselves as  Arabs aligned with either Jordon or in the case of Gaza, Egypt and some as Syrian or pan-Arab. Lets all of us at least be honest about the history of the region.

Also, The UN actually does not see the West Bank settlements as illegal. This is actually a recent spin on the result of the 67 war. It is clearly seen as "disputed" land that was to be resolved over negotiations.

The difficulty is the presence of a Jewish State of Israel that triggers a knee-jerk dislike of a group previously viewed with less then equal status in the past as members of Arab countries before the 48 war. Israel as a Jewish State, which it is in fact, is also democratic and every citizen regardless of their religion, color or creed is equal under the law.

Discrimination aside, as humans we still have not reached perfection. However, no where in the entire Arab world are Arabs, Muslim, Christian, Druze, Bahai, Sufi, and others have the individual  freedom and choice as they do in Israel. That is one of the reasons Israeli Arabs have no desire to be a part of a new Palestinian State. 

I think the focus is on practical application of a peace settlement. You all may think that all Israel needs to do is trust that her security will be assured. However, we all must realize that we are talking in terms of minutes to Ben Gurion Airport with full view of the planes and the ability to knock them down freely. One plane down is all it would take to create havoc. 

We are talking about a 5 minute drive from the West Bank to the closest Israeli town, pre 67. This is a serious problem that needs to be addressed in a manner that ensures protection of Israeli citizens from terrorist activity.

The most recent children programs on Fatah television is not encouraging as they continuously discuss with these young souls their need to be a martyr and sacrifice their lives in order to occupy all of the land. These are the generations that will be taking over in the near future.  This is not Hamas but Abbas's political wing.


I have more but enough for now. I pray we reach a peace agreement but EVRYONE knows in these parts that the real road to peace in the entire region is stopping Iran from funding terror, arms, etc and from getting the bomb. This will do more for peace then any current negotiation. In fact, peace will be had days after Iran is neutralized. 

0
YankeeJim

"There was never a Palestinian people."

"It is clearly seen as "disputed" land that was to be resolved over negotiations."

"Israeli Arabs have no desire to be a part of a new Palestinian State."

" I pray we reach a peace agreement but EVRYONE knows in these parts that the real road to peace in the entire region is stopping Iran from funding terror, arms, etc and from getting the bomb.."

Thank you Tikun.




2
keepitreal

Israel terms them disputed.International law and the UN define them as occupiedVery big difference

2
nanute

  There was never a Palestinian people. Not one Muslim living in this sparsely populated area saw themselves  as such but rather saw themselves as  Arabs aligned with either Jordon or in the case of Gaza, Egypt and some as Syrian or pan-Arab. Lets all of us at least be honest about the history of the region. Let's say we agree with you for argument sake. O.K.? How does this move the issue of peace forward? The people that are seeking an independent state in the "disputed" territories consider themselves Palestinians, primarily. They are there, and saying they are not Palestinian won't make them disappear.

Let me state very clearly, I recognize Israel as a state entity, with the right of self determination. Arguing that neutralizing Iran will go a long way towards solving the problem is wishful thinking. Escalating conflict with Iran is also seen as a solution by neocons here in America. Why don't we just let the "end of times" Evangelicals come over and convert everyone to Christianity? Problem solved, right? I don't mean to be flippant. The point is that neither of these points of view are going to solve the problem. Continued expansion of the settlements by Israel, and the inability to recognize Israel as a state by the "Palestinians" are the primary obstacles to a peaceful solution. Neither side seems willing to move off of the dime, which makes the status quo most likely. It would appear that extremists on both sides are the main obstacles to peace. The question as I asked previously, is: does the current actions and policy of Israel in the "disputed" territories enhance Israel's long term security?

I won't support violations of basic human rights by either side, and will reject being labeled an anti Semite when I feel justified in criticizing Israel's actions in this regard. 


1
tikun

@ Nanute,

Thanks for your sincere thoughts on the subject.

Sometimes clarity of the reality, past and present, makes room for reconciliation. No more smoke and mirrors. I do believe, as many in Israel concur, that Iran is so feared by our surrounding neighbors that any attempt  to destroy Israel by nuclear bomb will destroy the entire Arab Middle East. Iran does not like Arabs and in fact being a non-Arab Muslim people, see the others as an enemy that needs to be eliminated in anyway possible.

The money they give to Hamas, Hezbullah, Syria and others only help contribute to the overall instability in this region and delays any chance of peace between Israel and the rest of the regional players. This region needs clarity, living in the place where dictatorships and royalty are the social, political and military reality. Israel makes most of these countries very uncomfortable, not so much that Jews are living here, as the system being democratic and egalitarian by design. This is a direct threat to their way of life as Israeli Arabs quietly share their contentment to live in this kind of a country. Much is not spoken publicly for many obvious reasons.

Again, I would like to strongly suggest that settlements are not the issue or obstacle to peace. Most of these so-called "settlements" will be given up just as in Gaza if and when there is any real agreement for peace. EVERYONE, including the Palestinian leadership knows this all too well but hides behind their rhetoric in Arabic to their people suggesting that the only peace is the elimination of the Jewish State. A very real dilemma.

I pray for peace and so does so many Israelis of all shapes and sizes from all backgrounds. Until there is a will to give up the idea of destroying Israel in 10, 20 or even 30 years there will only be attempts at peace but no agreement.

One more point, the Arab population has prospered in this region as Israel built its nation slowly in areas that were almost uninhabited. As prosperity began to take hold Arab villages sprang up next Jewish communities as they to benefited from the economic advantage.

All is not what it seems at times in this ever changing landscape.

BTW, as far as I am concerned there will never be a reason to call anyone anti-Semitic just because they do not see eye to eye with Israeli policy or actions. But there is also a fine line between criticism and the use of scapegoating in the guise of many of the "code words" we all are too familiar with in trying to de-legitimize  Israel's right to exist as a nation. No one questions any other nations right to exist in the world .


Be Well,

Steve

1
t k kidwai

@Piobar"There is no United Nations.There is an international community that occasionally can be led by the only real power left in the world,and that is the United States,........When the United States leads,the United Nation will follow.When it suits our interest to do so,When it does not suit our interests we will not".-Bennis,Phyllis,calling the shots:How Washington Dominates Today's UN.

By reshaping UN,the neo-empire means stripping four permanent members of veto power.

3
nanute

The veto power is the wild card. The US may have a large say in the outcome of matters. China and Russia still have the veto power, and will us it against the US when it is to their advantage;geopolitical or nationalist.

1
Piobar

I agree with you again, in part, the UN is a dead entity at this time. No nation, however, should have veto power, all nations should support it fully, and the bureaucracy needs to be thinned out, if that is to change. The problem is, none of the members with Veto power will give it up. Russia, China, Britain, France, and the US all need to give up their little get our of jail card, or else nothing demanded by the international community, which the UN is supposed to represent, will matter a whit.

I do not agree, however, that the only real superpower is the United States. It IS  the only unified super-power. But, the economic crisis aside, the European Union is verging on becoming a super-power. When they can agree on issues, they have the power to make things happen. China, also, is at that point, where it is essentially a super-power in all but name. Moreover, US dominance, fed by the old regime of world power bankrupting themselves in the last century, and funding US industry, as they had exhausted their own, is now being repeated by the US itself. The US ecomony is sinking, and fast. Other nations are taking advantage of the fact that US military muscle is stretched thin, and financial clout is slipping. It may very well be too late to save the UN.

But that does not mean the idea should be abandoned, simply the outdated entity. A new venue, built on the same principles, but without veto powers, without a permanent and non-permanent membership, is what the world needs. If enough nations stand together, the will of the stronger nations can be opposed, or balanced. That was the origional idea, no one nation powerful enough to drag the world to war. The League of Nations lacked a backbone. It failed, it was replaced. The UN had a backbone, but it lost it, doomed to fail by the veto powers held by a few self inflated national egos.

I have no support for Imperialism, Neo or Classic. Might may be right, while it lasts, but it never does. I think that is where our perspectives differ, because we are looking at different parts of the same problem. I am seeing how it failed, and you where it failed. The fact is, we both agree that it is broken, but sadly neither of us have the power to step up and fix it.

2
t k kidwai

@Piobar."Let's take a look at the record,Mr.Speaker,and see what happened in the United Nations'Assembly meeting prior to the vote on partition.A two-thirds vote was required to pass the resolution.On two occasions the Assembly was to vote and twice it was postponed.......In the meantime,it is reliably reported that intense pressure was applied to the delegates of three small nations by the United States's member and also by officials"at the highest levels in Washington"......The decisive votes for partition were cast by Haiti,Liberia and the Philippines.These votes were sufficient to make the two-thirds majority.Previously,these countries opposed the move.....the pressure by our delegates,by our officials,and by the private citizens of the United States constitutes reprehensible conduct against them and against us."-Lawrence H.Smith,member of the House of the Representatives,18Dec,1947.-US Congressional Records,18 Dec.1947-page 1176.

"I met personally with all my Security Council counterparts in an intricate process of cajoling,extracting,threatening and occasionally buying votes".Baker,James a, The Politics of Diplomacy,Revolution,War and Peace.

Two permanent members with veto powers,Russia and China extract a price for voting in favour of US sponsored resolutions or abstention (veto power is like credit card);the other two are subordinate allies of the empire.The two most notorious financial institutions,IMF and WB serve as vital organ of the empire,which, in the words of Dinesh D'Souza ,is most magnanimous imperial power ever.

1
anymoose

i have to laugh at these people who think their organization of human beings is more superior than another organization of human beings and that if they further organize some how mysteriously the same human failings that dominates each and every country and it's organizations will disappear. or if not disappear, will not have an equal weight of influence on the decisions and outcomes.

0
YankeeJim

Welcome to America.

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First Flagged at 3:44 AM, Sep 15, 2010 by nanute
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