Obama sets WH immigration reform meeting June 8, 2009 NO AMNESTY

What kind of an American are you? Please learn how to spell first before you shame yourself further. Melissa is right 100%.

Only Indians are real American..... We all , or our ancesters, were immigrants. He who is not happy can trace his way back to its origines. Yes to imigration reform. God will will preveal.

I agree with Melissa too. We need a good immigration reform!!!!!

I loved everything you said! I am with you! Something needs to be done and fast!

I also agree with Melisa!! Something needs to be done!! We are not animals!! There is already too much injustice being done in the world today. I believe if America wants to set an exmple for the rest of the world, we ought to start treating immigrants better. If we want to rise from this Economical crisis, an immigration reform is a great first step to be taken. Please do something, now......we need a change........and YES WE CAN!!!

I agree with Melissa 100%!

Don Mashak,

Well, here is a situation that will always have a lot of difference in opinion and no matter how one puts it, it is up to each individual to make sense of it in their own way.

In response to your request, let me ask you one question ! Do you not believe, that in the last two decades the population of the US (or the World) has grown tremendously ?

I am sure your answer is YES you believe. So haven't there been enough resources to provide for that growth over all these years ? As with regards to job resources, the US outsources them anyways, so how does that affect legalization. US companies in their quest to provide Americans with competitive pricing on goods or services, will always outsource jobs to third world countries that provide cheaper labor (manufacturing/call centers).  

I do not favour anyone breaking any laws, but considering the damage is already done like approximately 12 million times, why would you not want them to not pay their taxes? They are already a part of our society and enjoy most of the benifits without paying for it. Besides it is absolutely impossible to get rid of 12 million odd people who are an important part of the work force of America.

I personally do not believe in unemployment under normal circumstances (except during the current economic downturn). If one wants to work, there are plenty of opportunities. I haven many friends who throw away jobs faster than their underwear. There is always some rant or the other about their work. I believe you can't get Something from Nothing.

Finally, here is what I would call fair to us :

1] They pay a $ 3000.00 Fine (use to fix the system / borders).

2] Must learn English within the next 3 Years,  failing which warn then revoke.

3] Must pay Income Taxes for the next 10 consecutive years and no welfare during those 10 years.

4] No Criminal Records. Those with one, should be sent back immediately.

What about the others? I'm European and i'm an engineer with a master degree. I'm sure that America would find a good use for my education. I have my own SSN (i didn't steal it and it's not fake!), DL and State issued ID. Would you think that America would have a better future without people like me here? I agree that there are a lot of illegal immigrants who steal or join gangs and do different crimes but let's not forget that a lot of immigrants have higher education and are decent , honest persons who just need a chance to do something for themselves and the society. So, i would say first to find solutions for the crimes that people do: legals, illegals, immigrants or american citizens !

I completely agree with Melissa. Immigrants do not come to the United States to cause problems or to take jobs from Americans. They are people who come from countries where there are no opportunities. They feel obligated to cross the border in search of better lives for themselves and their children. Yes, they know they have broken the law but what would you do if you had children and could not afford to feed them and you knew that they would never go to school or be anyone in life? Wouldn't you cross the border in search of a better future? Immigrant families come here with no money, no clothes, and some cannot even speak English. They face judgment, racism, and struggle to adapt to a new culture, and to learn a new language. No one would put themselves through such struggles for the fun of it. Even though it is so difficult for them, they stay here because they know life will still be better for them in the U.S. than it was in their native countries. Many of these hard working families manage to learn the language and the culture, and many even have children in college. These families are no different from any other American families. Our immigration system is so broken that it is impossible for so many people to become legalized. Only a handful of people can actually meet the requirements to apply for naturalization. Meanwhile, lawyers are ripping people off with fake promises when our government could just as easily change the immigration system so that more people can come here legally. These are not criminals we are talking about. They are people with feelings and goals, and dreams. All they need is a piece of paper that says they are legal residents and president Obama made a promise to help these people. I am certain that we elected a good man to be president, a man of integrity, who keeps promises. President Obama, please be as amazing as we know you are by keeping your promise to help immigrant families. Our country needs a positive change. Comprehensive immigration reform will better our country, help our economy, and forever change the lives of hard working individuals. You can make this happen and we should all support our fellow immigrant friends in their effort because we are ALL immigrants. 

Employment ratio will increase and not decrease

Employment ratio will increase and not decrease if the immigration law change out of 12 million illegal immigrants 80% of them are illiterate and 10% of them are only school grades. These immigrants are not a BACHELOR / UNDERGRADUATE / MASTER’s degree holder with good qualification and work experience. These illegal immigrants are working in restaurant, grocery store, gas station, deli store, super market, construction / labor works. How can these people apply for a Bank Manager position, CEO for the company, sales manager position etc… 12 million illegal immigrants are here and it’s highly impossible to send all the illegal immigrants to their home country. But the best deal is all the illegal immigrants have to pay the fine and learn English language and pay the taxes.

Advantages for the country if the Immigration law changes

 All the 12 million illegal immigrants have to pay the fine for example $ 500 per head which is 12 million by $ 500 is a huge income for the country.
 Most of them are uneducated and illiterate so they need a help from an attorney for filing the papers. Here the attorney is benefited.
 They have to Pay taxes for example $ 10 per head per month which is 12 million by $ 10. And here the CPA is benefited.
 They have to learn English language so they will go to institute and pay the fees. Institute is benefited.
 12 million immigrants will apply for Social Security Number & Drivers license they will pay the SSN application fee, Drivers License fees and learn driving through the driving school.
 12 million immigrants will apply for state I.D and passport so they have to pay for the state I.D & Passport
 These people will buy a new phone under the contract the phone company is benefited
 12 million immigrants will be covered by health insurance so they have to pay insurance premium here the insurance company is benefited
 12 million immigrants will open a bank account and start depositing the cash here the banks is benefited.
 Out of 12 million immigrants 20% – 25 % will plan to buy an apartment so the realtors and brokers are benefited.
 Out of 12 million immigrants 25% – 30 % will plan to buy a car so the car company and the car dealers and the auto mobile’s dealers will be benefited.
 This country will be benefited and all the people will be benefited in all the directions.
 12 million immigrants plan to visit the home country so all the travel agents and airlines agencies is benefited.

Mr. Mashak your ancestor came from hungary and immigrated here in the 1885-1887

and about 70% work in farms and 30 in public svs.bremen Germany and england is part of your heritage too, they all came here as immigrants as well thats why most of them lived in the  easter northern part of the states they came in a boat , some inside barrels and wooden boxes and risking thier lifes so that you can call your self an american citezen and claim this flag , so i dont know why you are fuzzing, i too like the american heritage and if you look at our currency and all american symbols and slogans  they say things like united we stand,or "one  nation under god with liberty and JUSTICE for all" Let me remind u that our presidents background is also of Immigrant heritage as you can see and Did you know that the name AMERICA is actually european from an immigrant who came here in a sailing boat before columbus, and the part of witch people say immigrants are unlawfull is because they are not allowed the oppurtunity to do the things right, no not all man were born equal but when they ask me what race i am when filling up an application i put Human thats my race what is yours, and you said it your self that is our nature to compete to better our selves , just thank god u didnt had to be sneeked in to this land 50 years ago or you might be say something more human like, at the end what is it to us we are all going to die one day and the land will remain here immigrants or no immigrants , so just  enjoy all the chinese food you can eat ,the tacos and italian pasta, because no matter where you go you have to eat i can gurantee you that in the back of the store or restaurant there is a low paying worker , making your favorite dish and he does it with pride and you eat it with no complaints.
laugh out loud while drinking a margarita or corona on 5 de mayo or 4th of july.

A  frican

M exican

E uropean

R ed neck

I ndian

C anadian

A sian

I agree with Melisa!!! We need reform NOW and fast! Families are hurting all the while still working and paying taxes! We put up Amber Alerts for missing children yet we rip families apart.  We call ourselves "The Greatest Country" yet, We rip families apart!!! American citizens are forced to deport themselves to be with spouses. We are taking our own American Citizens rights away. Americans crying because of job being lost to Immigrants. Take a drive down any major road construction... Count how many white Americans it takes to hold up a shovel and count how many immigrants are actually working. This country needs hard workers..... and loving families! We need more culture! This country should be on top of this. Get with it people!

Melisa, you're 100% right. This country needs to start realizing who is doing the jobs and contributions needed to succeed. Anyone who oposes an Immigration Reform need to do their homework and not just open their mouth 'cause they think they own this country, YOU DON'T! What did the U.S. do with all the african-americans who worked their fields and built their cities, got sent back to die somewhere else. Same thing is happening now a days. Who knows who is getting sent back; a doctor, a nurse, a lawyer, etc.; someone who can contribute to make this country even better. Just put yourself in their shoes, what would you do to make your children's future better? What would you do?

I agree 100% for reform.  My wife is actually going through this immigration situation and may be deported based on something her US guardian did when she was 18 years old in 1987.  I hope reform goes through soon.  However, I would add to the above:

1.  Penalty of $10,000 per illegal alien, per family payable over 5 years.

2.  Lifetime probation

3.  No voting rights

4.  No ability to bring non-immediate family members to US

5.  If current illegal alien has committed certain crimes right now (murder,rape,etc.) would not be allowed to take advantage of this relief

6.  no welfare for life.  kids may receive food for a limited period of time

7.  Married couples with children get preference if alien has committed certain crimes based on "jury" review (on case by case basis)

We take in 2 million legal immigrants a year, more than any other country in the world. I am not against some amnesty for some here more than ten years, for example, but without secure borders and a secure process for hiring legals, the problem will continue.

Make me an offer of a secure border and use E-Verify, the 99+ percent accurate system of verification is contested by the Chamber of Commerce and the ethnocentric so-called "pro-immigration" groups, and some kind of amnesty for the most worthy will be the fruit.

This is the issue where the elites on the right, Wall Street, and the elites on the left, La Raza, ACLU, etc., agree, and that is why my own personal dope-smoking, Bush-hating friends are against illegal immigration.

The "anti-elites" and the "un-elites" agree on what to do.

This is where greed and the will to power do rule, in the elite's call to "immigration reform", a call to amnesty without securing the borders first.

2 million immigrants is already beyond the limit.

As a senior paralegal at an immigration firm for 5 years with a political science degree, I have worked with countless immigrants who played by the rules and those that didn't.  I have even worked with some people who both played by the rules and broke the rules who have committed felonies against the United States.  I have realized that almost every single person I have worked with have had one simple goal for coming to the United States...To start new lives here and contribute to society.  They are compassionate people who got down on their knees and cried when they received their green cards...I am not a supporter of Obama...i didnt vote for him and was strongly against him being president based on his policies...but i have to say that a green card (legal status whether they came in legally or illegaly) means opportunity.  It is not a free pass to do whatever they want.  It is an opportunity to improve their lives and the lives of others.  These are the same people who have worked hard while paying taxes and doing community service on their free time i.e. cleaning streets, picking up garbage, organizing community events for children etc. (those who were here for many years that were able to get social security and/or tax ids).  Many of these people who still do many of the aforementioned things are scared to show their faces because ICE (immigration and customs enforcement-for those who dont know...immigration police) will literally kick down their doors and drag them out in broad daylight or sometimes ridiculously early in the morning while their children grab on to their parents legs begging not to leave.  Also many of these people are business people who employ Americans at damn good wages. So yes I do believe that many undocumented workers are beneficial to the economy as I have seen it first hand.  I have even seen Trial attorneys and Immigration Judges tear up when they hear some of the stories that these people have.  Unfortunately, immigration laws today are so contradictory and unclear and open to radical interpretations that many of these people are not able to come out of the dark and be fully able to contribute to society.  I am against legalization of felons but those who come here with a the goodwill of escaping their horrible lives back home to start anew here deserve a chance to contribute to society.

Sorry, NO AMNESTY isn't strong enough.  We need to make our opinions known by all peaceful means necessary, including boycott, reporting companies that hire illegals, and pressuring the lawmakers for stronger deportation laws.

This country is slowly degrading into North Mexico simply because the citizens there are unwilling and lazy to rise up and fix their own corrupt, immoral government.  Why should they, when the easy ticket is to illegally cross without having to learn english, heavily burdening our schools, hospitals, and social welfare systems?

Hello All.

I want to try to have a reasoned discussion on this issue. I understand the empathy for less fortunate people. I understand helping the less fortunate. I do not understand how you are proposing to acheive this. 

What reforms in particular are you suggesting? 

Should there be a limit to the number of immigrants we let in each years? I do not want to be critical of well reasoned welfare reform, if it is done within the bounds of reality. that reality being that there is unlimited demand for the limited resources of each country and the World? How do you propose dividing up those limited resources? Who get's to decide who get's what? That having been said, if we allow everyone to break the law, we will have anarchy. What elements of your proposed reform will prevent anarchy from occuring? 

Anarchy will occur when their are too many people seeking limited resources. I did not make the rules, I just acknowedge that they exist. With that introduction out of the way: I am going to risk saying that immigration in present day America has changed from what it has been historically.  Historically, America was a melting pot.  People came to the country and within 1 or 2 generations, blended into the American Culture, giving it a flavor but not overwhelming the fundamental nature/culture of the USA. 

Today, large segments of the immigrant population seperate themselves from the rest of traditional America. The Goverment provides them many forms in there own languages further providing disincentive to blend into the cultural melting pot. This balkinization me troubles me greatly.

I am afraid that the USA is becoming fragmented and will become vulnerable to dividing over cultural lines.  For 200 years we have taken in immigrants that have blended into our culure. In my 50 years, only in the last 10 have I seen this seperation and fragmentation occur. Am I wrong to want America to remain an historic America with Subtle flavors of immigrant culture giving it healthy Zest ? 

Am I wrong in thinking that growing centers of immigrants who hold them selves seperate from the rest of America will eventually result in political rifts along cultural lines and finally the breakup of the USA? To drive the point home, may I suggest you ask the original Native Americans what they think of Illegal Immigration? Now, again at the risk offending - We do not have unlimited resources ? 

We are broke. 

We do not have the 2 Trillion dollars that is being spent.  Please research what happened to argentina in 2001 when its government just printed money and did not balance the budget. Argentina's economy collapsed. And the average person lived in anguish.  If we had the resources, I would encourage helping everyone. 

But we live in reality. And resources are not unlimited. Again, in the interest of reasoned political discourse, what reforms do you have in mind to address the reality of limited resources and unlimited human demand? I will accept the arguement that resources in the USA and the world are unfairly distributed. The masses have been lazy and have allowed their Governments, Corporations, the rich and the powerful to take an inquitable share.  It is the nature of man to compete. 

Some persons compete unfairly, unethically and amorally.  The avoidance of pain is the response of some when confronted with the unfair, the unethical and amoral. But, at least in American, WE THE PEOPLE, let it happen whether it be out of pain avoidance or selfish self-interest.. 

I do not have the resources to fight for fair and equitable distribution of resources nor for the human liberties of everyone in the world.  Further, I have to admit, I was fortunate to have been born in the USA.  But for that very reason, I will fight to address the injustices, lack of equitable division of resources and erosion of human and constitutional liberties that are occurring here, in the country in which I was born. 

You can read some of my efforts at these URL's [ spam filter wont let me add them without rejecting entire article] And all of these battles come at an economic cost. 

I have lost business, associations and  freindships for speaking my mind, but I continue to fight for future generations of Americans - Americans that I identify with culturally with regardless of race, creed, religion or nationality. 

Am I wrong to think that some citizens of other countries should fight the ruling elites in their own countries for the equitiable distribution of resources and undeniable human rights? Should some not stay in their countries and fight against the injustice that motivates them to leave and come to the USA?  Should they not fight for their culture in their homeland?   

"Evil is not neutral, and there can be no neutrality exercised toward it. Anyone who is not against it is perforce in favor of it." Haaretz  Please, again I ask for reasoned discussion.  The politicians interest in this subject is only political gain. My intent is to forge common ground, not animosity. Please respect my intent.

Respectfully,

Don Mashak

The Cynical Patriot 

I challenge the government to remove all illegal immigrants from USA!!!!!!
US gov knows the consequences.
Then i wanna see what will happen!!!!!!!!!
If you can't kick us out, don't even dare to call names!!!!
I am tired of WAITING, give us answer fast!!

give amnesty or kick everybody out, and get done with this crazy circus!!!

Please respond thoughtfully and respectfully to my post which immediately precedes yours.

Thank you.

Don Mashak

The Cynical Patriot.

Eh, you are in complete denile. Illegal aliens steal SSN's to find jobs that belong to AMERICANS! The mexican illegal is the lowest scum that ever excisted.

Hey, Definger and Bruce - please play nice. 

Please address yourselves to the real issue.  America does not have unlimited resources. How about we make the issues about the need for any immigration reform to address the reality that without a immigration policy there would be unlimited human demand for limited US resources.

I will endorse any immigration reform that addresses that reality.  I am as empathetic to the sufferings of others as anyone, but the simply reality is that we have limited resources and uncontrolled immigration would shortly exhaust the resources and pollute the land.

This does not have to be personal, it needs to be a balance between humanitarian concerns and the realities of limited resources.

Mudslinging will not resolve the issue.  Americans do care about the people of other countries, but we can not house and feed the entire world without our country collapsing.

Thank you for your adherance to the decorum I have indicated was proper for this forum.

Respectfully,

Don Mashak

The Cynical Patriot 

Bill

Can you please address the limited resources facing unlimited demand issue?

How will the immigration reform that you would propose deal with the realitiy that resources and jobs in the USA are not limitless, human demand will eventually use up all the resources on the planet?  How does your proposed reform address this issue?

Name calling and insults will not bring about concensus and good will.

Please advise.

Respectfully,

Don Mashak

The Cyncial Patriot

Mr. Bob DOBALINA

Looking at your last name, it doesn't seem very American and even though you might be born in the US, I am more than sure that your parents or grand parents migrated from elsewhere. I don't know if they sneaked in illegally or they came the proper channel but I what I do know for sure is that migration was a lot simpler back in the day when immigrants were begining to settle here.

I am not supporting breaking any laws but it seems it has been broken like approximately 12 million times already. So are you going to rant about it rather than fix it ?

Even our President is born of immigrant parents, so what is the big issue ? Now if all these illegal aliens were legalised and made to pay income taxes for the next 10 consecutive years (by terms), that is substantial enough to support the system. I do support that they should learn english though as this is an english country.

Somehow willingness to do disgusting jobs, has become a qualification to comment on illegal regulation.  Though I dont agree, for the record I grew up working my fathers farms, I have milked cows, shoveled shit, bailed hay, fixed fence and done just about every other disgusting, hard, unglamorous job immaginable...

I will take my props now.

Don Mashak

The Cynical Patriot

I am transferring this post that was underneath the one of the pictures to this main comment area for more discussion and to give it more exposure.  Cynical Patriot

TL Winslow (not verified)
at 05:59 on June 6th, 2009

Immigration reform including amnesty as now envisioned is a quick fix, not a permanent solution.

The age-old pesky U.S.-Mexico border problem has taxed the resources of both countries, led to long lists of injustices, and appears to be heading only for worse troubles in the future. Guess what? The border problem can never be solved. Why? Because the border IS the problem! It's time for a paradigm change.

Never fear, a satisfying, comprehensive solution is within reach: the Megamerge Dissolution Solution. Simply dissolve the border along with the failed Mexican government, and megamerge the two countries under U.S. law, with mass free 2-way migration eventually equalizing the development and opportunities permanently, with justice and without racism.

To read details, Scroogle.org "MegaMerge Dissolution Solution"

(posted on behalf of CynicalPatriot - please respond to him and not me, the comment just wouldn't post for him)

I appreciate your effort to research and use facts in your arguement. (However, I do not think you are entirely correct about Amerigo Vespuci, the naming of America and attributing the discovery of the new world to him insted of Columbus.) On the other hand, I thought I pointed out my good fortune of being born in the USA. 

I thought I made reference to trespasseses against the Native American Indians and the problems unwanted immigration caused them when they could not control their borders. But upward and onward. I did not write this article to engage in mutual lambasting, but rather to try to create a concensus.  I am for any immigration reform that addresses the reality that the USA, like the world as a whole, has limited resources, facing an unlimited human demand. 

Please calmly and rationally address how immigration reform that you endorse will address the problems caused when limited resources face unlimited human demand ? I am offended that you infur that my desire to limit illegal immigration to preserve resources, reduce destruction of the environment and to prevent anarchy makes me insenstive to human suffering. 

You suggest that it is unfair that I have ancestors that immigrated here and seem to imply that i don't want to let anybody else in. Those are incorrect assumptions and assertions. 

Unless you have proof that my ancesters came here illegally, a large portion of your premise and arguement is flawed. I am for legal immigration.  I like the idea of giving other immigrants the same opportunity my ancestors had.  And we have to have immigration because the US Couple fertility rate is less than the 2.1 necessary to not go into decline. 

Now, to the best of my knowledge, my ancestors came here legally( sans proof of your infernence to the contrary).  And even if your assertion is true that my ancestors came illegally, you unfairly label me biased because I am already here. I point out that you that you share the same bias.   

To make my point, why grant amnesty to just the 12 million you say are already here? Why not 14 million ? Why not 24 million illegal immigrants ? You have just displayed your own, "We are already here bias". You appear to have missed the point that I don't care that there are 12 million immigrants here; I care that there are 12 million illegal immigrants here.  I am here legally. 

If I am not here legally, then toss me out of the country too. But for all of this discourse, you have still missed the point: What will your proposed reform do to deal with the issues caused by unlimited human demand for limited US resources? This one reality is why i am fussing.  Please Read : "Collapse : How Societies choose to fail or succeed"

Thank you for taking the time to express your viewpoint and taking the effort to cite some of your premises and facts.  I appreciate your effort in explaining to me your perspective.

Please advise.

Respectfully, Don Mashak

The Cynical Patriot

Hello:

Thanks for the reasoned, rationale discussion. 

Penalties and consequences and securing the border so we are not giving a pass to another 12 million in 5 years, seems like a reasonable start to a win-win discussion that takes into account that we do not have unlimited resources.  i could quibble over relative minutia like they are already here and did not use up all the resources and the outsource stuff, but your proposal, as long as it includes getting control of our borders addresses most of my concerns: learn english, assimilate, pay taxes, pay fine, pay taxes no access to the "public welfare system for 10 years", gain control of the borders so we don't have a 3peat.

Now the question is, will Obama be proposing a same or similar program?

Again, thank you for your thoughtful post.

Respectfully,

Don Mashak
The Cynical Patriot

Hello Joe,

Thank you for sharing your personal circumstance yet having the personal fortitude to suggest reform that addresses the needs of our country and our culture.

You are a true Patriot to not allow personal considerations and pressures of your own circumstance prevent you from saying and doing the right thing.

We need to get back to absolute morality in this country, as opposed to situational or conditional morality.  For example, if affairs are wrong, they are equally wrong whether the trespassers belong to our political party or the other political party.  And it should take the same amount of evidence in the courts or the court of public opinion, to find guilty regardless if they belong to our poltical party or another politcal party.

But I digress, both you and Bill offer reform that is fair to the country and address the limited resources issue.

Have a great day.

Respectfully,
Don Mashak

The Cynical Patriot