Op-Ed : Where 'Those Methods' Lead

Thanks for the story and the Robinson article, as well. -D

Prison torture and murders within America also needs attention. Abuse and secret deaths of inmates - U.S. citizens - was and is permitted by the USDOJ, the agency charged with protecting the rights of institutionalized persons. 

See this desperate plea for help by Penn. prisoners who fear for their lives, saying they were severely punished when Obama became president by verbal abuse, beatings, electrocution, and starvation, with their punishment allegedly growing more brutal after they reported their torture:  http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/1124844

My advocacy centers around exposing prisoner issues, particularly decriminalizing mental illness.  Prisons became America's mental institutions in the 70's, probably to enrich prison profiteers.  Sick inmates suffer even worse than others.  Over 60% of those in solitary confinement are mental patients.  In the document above, a mentally ill inmate was allegedly verbally abused by taunting guards who repeatedly called him "retarded" and advised him to kill himself.

All of the prisoners mentioned in the above document are still in that prison today - still suffering today.

As with the overseas detainees, the USDOJ has frequently denies accountability for wrongful deaths of  American inmates, no matter how much conspiracy among officials and illegal intimidation against a dead inmate's family it takes to avoid disclosure.  I had hoped that things would CHANGE under Holder, but when I called and wrote the USDOJ about the illegal denial of records regarding my brother's secret death, I got put on terminal hold and emails to the USDOJ go unanswered.  See the case regarding my brother, Larry Neal:  http://wrongfuldeathoflarryneal.com. 

Many abused inmates and their families - U.S. citizens - hope some of the attention to prison torture and wrongful deaths will be turned homeward.  However, I find that their issues are so censored that it is hard to alert the public about the sadism that prevails in U.S. correctional facilities.

Mary Neal

Thanks for this update Karen

Karen, your op-ed piece is another slippery-slope argument.

Yes, there is a dark side to this treatment as there is to war itself, or gun ownership, or welfare or the legalization of drugs.

These methods must be closely supervised and reviewed and only used when justified, just as deadly force must be closely supervised and only used when justified.

These methods worked and if we had not used them, people alive today would have been killed. We have to ask the relative merits of the information gained versus the ethics of the methods used.

If there were another and better method, I would oppose these methods as unjustified, but that is not the case.

I don't get the objection to sleep deprivation at all.

How did sleep deprivation end up being a violation of the Geneva Convention ?

This is beginning to remind me of the AIG bonuses. There was no law broken yet when I pointed that out I was persona non grata on the thread.

Could someone point to me where sleep deprivation is defined as torture by the Geneva Convention?

Beyond that, the real problem is that Al Qada members are not regular forces nor comparable to partisans who go about war out of uniform.

Why support what is plainly irrational and an unethical dereliction of our need to protect others?

No one has addressed this. Tell me that you prefer that your loved ones or neighbors be killed or maimed to us breaking the Geneva convention and sleep depriving real terrorists?

If the rule is bad and you are good, then you break the law to stay good. If you obey an immoral and irrational law, then you are immoral and irrational as well.

I have decided to focus on sleep deprivation because it is the easiest case to make as not a form of torture used within some kind of decent boundaries.

Basically, we have all been sleep deprived at times and we all know what it is like.

I saw that, but thanks, Cypresso.

The more I learn about the Geneva Convention, the less respect I have for it. Interestingly enough, we will spend a lot of time on this here, and the torture in Cuba's jails, Chavez's prisons and in China will get scant attention.

I agree and I disagree.

What you are saying is that conscientious objectors should not object to the draft so much that they object to alternative service and refuse to do it. My Quaker headmaster's son refused his and went to jail. Some went to Canada rather than be drafted.

You're saying that they should obey the law, right? Conscience can never come first. Legality must come first?

I think that if the Geneva Convention interferes with our capacity to carry out our rational and ethical programs to protect ourselves, then we should rescind the treaty.

If it is ethical to shoot a person with a gun to protect ourselves, then it is OK morally to deprive them of sleep or put an insect into a box with them to get information that would save people's lives.

And, I have news for you. If Obama's administration feels it needs to deprive some terrorist of sleep to save lives, Obama will OK it.

Hey, Holder's boss, Janet Reno, OK'ed using force in Waco, Texas. we saw the results. But it wasn't "torture".

http://www.rense.com/general61/ddoc.htm

Remember who you're dealing with

I can't think of a single country that we have opposed in war or in the Cold War that would honor the Geneva Convention.

Frankly, the thought of not torturing someone equivalent to an Al Qada chieftain to save lives of Americans who might end up in the hands of Nazi Germans, Red Chinese, Soviet-era Russians,, Islamic extremists, North Koreans, Cuba, Chavez's jails in Venezuela or even Mexico's jails is absurd.

None of the above mentioned has honored or will honor the Geneva Convention.

Thank you, too, Cypresso. Your contribution is really appreciated.

I was taught a lot about breaking the rules by the church and the Quakers. I don't have a problem about breaking the rules if necessary. I have the feeling that you are actually the same way and that you understand the seriousness of breaking the rules here.

The schizophrenic path upon which the Bush administration has led the nation and the world, through the use of the Bush Doctrine, starting a war yet calling it "pre-emptive strike", exemplifying its problematic renaming and discarding terminology in an Orwellian fashion, merits neither admiration nor imitation.

Eliminating the need for troops at Mecca, one of the most hated aspects of the post-Gulf war situation, could only be accomplished with Saddam's removal.

The Al Qada terrorists' treatment has nothing to to with Saddam. We were hit before the invasion. Having to waterboard someone to save lives is rational and ethical. It works and it is acceptable to many as a method.

Pre-emptive strikes is not the topic here. The validity of water-boarding, sleep deprivation, and the rest is the topic.

What will Obama do that is different? Will he treat a high-value captive with kid gloves and allow someone to withhold information that could save someone's life?

If you had known that the  KKK was going to bomb that church in Birmingham, Alabama, the one where the four girls got killed, and you had to torture some KKK guy to save the kids from being killed, you are saying that you would not torture the KKK guy?

Is that better?

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that anyone with a conscience would allow that guy to go untortured to "obey the law" and let those kids get killed.

You, America, is having  a very public discussion airing your dirty laundry.  In the end this may well be a good debate amongst yourselves, I.m not sure it helps America though with the rest of the world. 

I have stated before and I will state it again at the risk of repeating myself.  Be careful of the monster you unleash with this vandetta.  As an outsider it seems to me that the whole issue is about getting even with the Bush Administration.  From what I have heard and seen there seems to be some record in Congress that the top 8 officials in Congress were briefed in detail and signed off on those methods circa 2003 (both Democrats and Republicans).  Apparently Nacy Pelosi has recently developed Alzheimers disease on this. 

Remember you still have troops serving around the world.  Please show some consideration to them when beating up on each other on this issue. 

these are such dark times, whats the point of going to a country to make thngs better then using torture, i wonder what the pictures will show, lets hope in the end its not as bad as its being made out to be.