Roman Empire and Glenn Beck Republicans

by ishambat | October 26, 2010 at 02:57 am
871 views | 8 Recommendations | 59 comments

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Glenn Beck & the girls from "The View" | Photo 02

Glenn Beck & the girls from "The View" | Photo 02

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One frequent claim made by American Right is that the Roman Empire fell apart because of its "decadence." Like most claims of American Right this one is wrong, and it is time that more people see that.

The Roman Empire was sacked 200 years after it became a Christian nation. If decadence played a role in Rome's decline, it must have come from Christianity. As for the actual decline of Roman Empire, it, like all of the world's failures, was a result of stupidity.

In 20 AD, a Roman inventor named Hero of Alexandria invented a steam engine. The Romans thought that the slave labor was cheap and abundant, and that there were no uses for the invention. If they had not made the disastrously stupid decision to fail to implement the steam engine, they would have industrialized 1800 years early, produced military machines that would have made mincemeat of any invading army, abolished the institution of slavery that was the true moral outrage of the Roman Empire and the true source of hatred against it, and the world would be speaking Latin to this day.

There are many people in America - allied with those who attribute Rome's decline to "decadence" - who want America to make today similarly disastrously stupid decisions that Romans had done in early 1st century AD. These people want to force continued reliance on destructive, polluting, inefficient technologies such as oil and coal, at the expense of progress in creation of high-intelligence high-technology high-benefit abundant clean energy. They want to poison the world, and then they want to blame the resulting disasters upon "humanity" - meaning of course the liberal influence that has known about the problem all along and has tried to do meaningful things about it only to be consistently thwarted by Republican conmen. They want to destroy the world, and then they want to claim that what follows is God's punishment and Armageddon. These people, who want to inflict on their children a toxic hell and thorough ignorance, and upon their country an economical and environmental disaster, then claim that they have family values, common sense and American patriotism and that you do not. And pursuant these claims they want to force you to be them and to follow their totalitarian party line even as they continue to ridiculously accuse Obama of Communism or totalitarianism or Hitlerism and as they continue to muddle people's minds with lunatic claims of a Satanic New World Order conspiracy which includes of course everyone except themselves.

These people are claiming that they want to save America; but it is from them that America truly requires saving. These neo-McCarthyite thugs pose vast danger not only to America but to humanity itself. As George Orwell wrote, "Freedom means freedom to say that 2+2=4. All else follows." The Glenn Beck Republicans want to force you to say that 2+2=5 and to kill you if you disagree.

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1
YankeeJim

"As for the actual decline of Roman Empire, it, like all of the world's failures, was a result of stupidity."
I'll buy that.

1
Piobar

Stupidity and laziness, I would say. By the fall of the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 />Western Roman Empire, the majority of the Roman populace had become complacent. The soldiers, the defining aspect of the Empire, who were police, firemen, road-crews, civil engineers, all at once, were no longer really "Roman" the majority of them were mercenaries, trained in the methods of the Roman army, given Roman equipment, and expected to have the loyalty to Rome that the Legions once had. Stupidity clearly played a huge role in this.

However, another key factor that is that the Romans themselves no longer put as much effort into their empire. Many Romans would pay a fee to get out of mandatory service. Those who did serve were softer, refusing to go to the lengths their forebears had gone, such as building fortifications, and carrying large amounts of supplies and gear with them. That laziness is what led to the "decadence" theory, which was later twisted by the sexually oppressed Victorian era. The decadence, orgies and mass murder, had been there all along. They were, by and large, on the decline by the end. Laziness and Stupidity, however, along with bureaucratic apathy, were on the rise. So when those Roman trained and equipped mercenaries decided to return to their barbarian rape and pillage ways, Rome no longer had the ability to put a stop to it.

That DOES seem to somewhat foreshadow certain current events, of course. Arming a former enemy, training them, and then abandoning them before they have the stability to thrive on their own… rather than building up potential allies, it is arming potential enemies. Without stability, places like Iraq and Afghanistan will not remain friendly to the west, the puppet regimes that were supposed to give way to real democratic governments will be toppled, and the troops trained, armed, and once funded by the West will become a bigger thorn in our sides than the people we used them to replace. Just like the last time, which led to the Taliban taking power. And yet, both Republicans and Democrats, in the US, and their equivalents in other Western nations, such as the Conservatives, Liberals, and Labour or NDP in the UK and Canada, are incapable of seeing this obvious mistake, which they are all willing to support for the sake of short term gains, because by the time it back fires, it will be someone else’s problems. Again we see that stupidity and laziness come forth. Why put out the effort now, to prevent problems down the road, which may never occur; if plague wipes that entire nation out, it was a waste of effort. If nothing wipes them out, well, someone else will be responsible by then; the typical bureaucratic and political perspective: lazy, stupid, and short sighted.

1
ishambat

"However, another key factor that is that the Romans themselves no longer put as much effort into their empire. Many Romans would pay a fee to get out of mandatory service. Those who did serve were softer, refusing to go to the lengths their forebears had gone, such as building fortifications, and carrying large amounts of supplies and gear with them. That laziness is what led to the "decadence" theory, which was later twisted by the sexually oppressed Victorian era. The decadence, orgies and mass murder, had been there all along. They were, by and large, on the decline by the end. Laziness and Stupidity, however, along with bureaucratic apathy, were on the rise. So when those Roman trained and equipped mercenaries decided to return to their barbarian rape and pillage ways, Rome no longer had the ability to put a stop to it.
"

This is all that needs to be said to completely invalidate the "decline due to decadence" theory. Someone I know who has a lot of historical knowledge said that the slaves' graves actually became smaller and poorer after Rome became Christian as people thought that they're going to heaven so who cares what happens to them on Earth. There are people in America who keep making noises to the effect of America is following the same path of decline as did ancient Rome. According to this logic, it is America becoming Christian that is taking it on the path to decline.

0
t k kidwai

There are no definite causes which can explain the fall of an empire.There were specific reasons which  set in motion decline of  empire culminating into fall.The common causes were tyrant,ineffective and inefficient rulers.Annexation and merger of larger territories with empire,rendered management of empire extremly difficult.Loosened grips on subjects,ignited rebellion and revolt.Disintegeration born out of inherent contradictions eventually precipitated collapse of empire.No empire survived contradictions and has had to collapse.Roman empire,Persian empire,Byzantine empire and finally Ottoman empire,all fell.

The neo-empire has media,financial institutions,more than seven hundred bases,largest army in the known history and arsenal of dealiest weapons of mass destruction,no rival to challenge its hegemonic ambitions may stay for the time being.The secessionist movements in next few decades may be the begining of the end of neo-empire.Laziness and stupidity both are at work.Every thing takes it own time,downfall is not an exception.Let us hope for the best.

0
T1

The analogy between the reason/s for the fall of Ancient Rome, to the effect of modern Christanity on Right Wing political ideology, and Glenn Beck Republican specific political activism in American today_maybe a bit of a stretch.

My comment would be that this topic could be dealt with directly by suggesting all religions have effected societies around the global since religion began. That any religion for whatever purpose or meaning is controlled by man, culture, and society. That fallacies of mankinds ideas create the failings in our history. Our vision is blurred from our own emotional and mental shortcomings, misconceptions, and distortions. All religions are only part of those fallacies. The complexities of your assertion can't be defined in one way. 1

0
"thirty-aught-six"

More from the "progressives" who rewrite history to support their unsupportable prejudices. 

1
ishambat

Rome failing because of stupidity rather than "decadence" is not revisionism; it is fact.

Evil entities such as Christian Right write history in furtherance of their wickedness. It takes someone with knowledge of fact to say what has actually happened.

0
JohnJB

A couple of points. As others have said, there are many reasons the Roman Empire fell, one of which was that the Romans themselves no longer thought it worth defending. Individuals would rather pay some other sap to defend their culture than actually defending it themselves. This mindset is around today WRT Western culture. Another major point was the end of the Roman Warm period where global cooling caused drops in Italian crop yeilds and Rome itself became dependent on imported food from elsewhere in the Empire, notably Egypt. Harsher conditions in the North forced the northern tribes south and into the Empire.     I must also take issue with the "high-technology high-benefit abundant clean energy" idea. Figures from Britain show that Wind is not living up to it's promise and barely makes 10% of its rated power output. Hydro is good and clean, but it seems those who want "clean energy" don't want dams. So where is this energy supposed to come from?      "They want to poison the world", "They want to destroy the world". Really? You actually believe that the American right has as its intent, the destruction of the planet? And you accuse them of conspiracy theories?

1
ishambat

Here is a clean energy technology that is worth putting into place:

http://www.adda-enterprises.com/HTNwebsite/home.htm

As for the anti-clean-energy, global-warming-is-a-socialist-UN-hoax movement, clearly it is led by people who want people to believe that an end of the world is coming in our lifetime and who are seeking to artificially arrange matters so that such explanations appear sensible to enough people to put them in the decision-making place.

0
JohnJB

After reading the Adda Enterprises "papers", I can only assume that both you and they flunked basic physics and chemistry..  

  1.  Even ignoring the fact that the pipes, valves and control mechanisms don't exist at the moment, the pipes especially requiring an entirely new technology to make them "lossless". 
  2. I can add that electrolysis of sea water doesn't release oxygen to the atmosphere, but chlorine gas instead. If you wish to produce O2, then you have to purify the water, which takes energy.
  3. The idea of supplying houses with water from the combustion of hydrogen is laughable. You would need to burn 1,578.3 litres of hydrogen (using 789.26 litres of Oxygen) to make a single litre of water. Brisbane, even under water restrictions requires 850 megalitres of water per day. This would require 1,341,555,000,000 litres of hydrogen every day.
  Would you care to try again? I'm all for a cleaner world, but let's keep pie in the sky fantasies out of it.
      

0
JohnJB

Just to add.   It takes 4kwh of energy to produce 1 litre of hydrogen by electrolysis. This means the energy requirements for this little idiocy to provide water for Brisbane is 5,366,220,000,000 kwh or 5,366,220,000 megawatt hours. I haven't checked, but I don't think we produce that much electricity in the entire nation at the moment.

0
JohnJB

I just checked, and yes we do. To generate the hydrogen will require a 223.5 megawatt power station running 24/7. However, since the system doesn't use storage and the rate of usage will be far higher during the day, then the required power will be rather closer to 400 megawatts to cope with the load.   If the intention is to reduce greenhouse gasses, then a 250 tower wind farm would generate enough power, provided the wind blows. However, since windfarms generally run at less than 30% of their rated power output, (IIRC England was 12% last year) then you will still need the 400 megawatt power station ticking over to make up the shortfall.

0
ishambat

The energy created through combustion of hydrogen and oxygen at the end of the process is the same as the energy consumed to perform electrolysis of ocean water at the beginning of this process. Basic chemistry, that even people here who have not studied chemistry can understand.

0
ishambat

Since solar energy is infinite, it doesn't matter how much energy it takes to produce hydrogen by electrolysis. And the energy expended to produce hydrogen by electrolysis will be equally matched by the same energy being produced at the end of the reaction through combustion of hydrogen with atmospheric oxygen.

I am quite tired of your nasty tone and foul language. If this was idiocy, it would not have been featured in a number of major papers.

0
ishambat

1. There are several operating hydrogen transmission pipes in the world, some transmitting over 200km. Most of them are in Germany, and they have not had an accident despite having been in operation for decades.

2. Electrolysis of ocean water breaks down water into hydrogen and oxygen. Salt and other impurities will sink to the bottom and flow out into the ocean without becoming part of reaction.

3. The amount of hydrogen consumed at the end of the process is the same as the amount of hydrogen produced in electrolysis. Litre of ocean water consumed at the beginning of the process = litre of fresh water created at the end of the process.

Any other questions?

0
JohnJB

"Foul language"? Where did I use foul language? I didn't come here to start a fight, but neither can I stand by and watch effort being wasted on useless schemes. Effort that can put towards workable ideas. 

    1. The energy created by the combustion isn't the same. No system of conversion is lossless. Electrolysis is about 95% efficient, so there is a 5% loss there. Burning it at the other end running a steam generator is going to lose about another 20% and the actual generator for the power will lose around another 7%. In a perfect, frictionless world maybe, but not in the real world. Even if you use H2 fuel cells, there is still a loss.
    2. Solar energy is not infinite, although it is pretty much inexhaustable. Current panels take about 9.2 m-2 to generate 1 kw of power. Using the Brisbane figures above and assuming peak output for 10 hours of daylight, how many square kilometres of solar panels are you going to need? Sydney and Melbourne will each need 3 times as much.
    3. As the system has no storage, and the sun doesn't shine at night, you will still need the 400 megawatt power station to make up the shortfall.
    4. Try Googling "Electrolysis of brine" (sea water), or just go to www.gcsescience.com/pt12.htm and you'll see the equations. You get chlorine gas. That's what science says will happen. Basic chemistry.
    5. By "major papers" I can only assume that you mean "newspapers" rather than "scientific papers". So what? Just because a journo doesn't check the sums something is a good idea? Assuming something is correct simply because a newspaper wrote an article about it is folly.
    6. Yes, there are major H2 pipelines, however a point to point major pipeline is a very different engineering problem compared to a household distribution network. It is that distribution network that will require the new technologies. The articles on the website you linked to say exactly the same thing. (As well as claiming first dibs on any patents that may come out of such new technology.)
    7. Repeating false claims will not make them correct. Every figure I've used and comment I've made can be checked and verified. I would have put in more reference links, but I don't know how many the software allows. Try Google.
    8. If reality conflicts with a persons opinion on something, perhaps the opinion needs re-evaluation? I add that an opinion that cannot bear argument can only be based in fantasy and not fact.
    So far I've only needed Wiki and a high school chemistry book to show the idea is unsound, how about something difficult?

    0
    ishambat

    A better tone here.

    Responding to (1): Yes, there is some loss in transmission, but the mechanism is still significantly more efficient than electric transmission lines, which waste vast amounts of energy that goes into them - up to 70% over long distance, compared to this mechanism wasting maybe 30%

    (2): Solar energy technology is getting better all the time. I do not know how much area will be required to power the electrolysis plants, but in Australia at least there is enough space.

    (3): I am not sure what you mean by shortfall. The hydrogen will remain in the pipes in both day and night.

    (4): Chlorine gas happens when salt gets in the system. This system is arranged in such a way as to preclude that scenario. Electrolysis will take pure water out of the ocean water. The water that has been subject to electrolysis, with more salt and impurities per unit of volume than regular water, will become heavier, sink to the bottom and wash out into the ocean.

    (5): This invention has been patented, and there has been a request for paper on it by a scientific publication. There has also been an academic paper on it by a third party:

    http://www.adda-enterprises.com/HTNwebsite/RMIT.pdf

    (6): The valves and pressure sensors required by the HTN can be built using present technologies. This is described on the site.

    (7): If these claims were false, there would not be a patent and there would not be academic papers on it.

    (8): Reality does not conflict with this. In fact reality fully welcomes this scenario.

    0
    JohnJB

    I wasn't aware the tone had changed. I'll keep using the numbered points because I just can't get the paragraph spacing to work for me. They won't neccessarily match your points though, okay? But I'll try to be close.

    1. I pointed out the losses simply to show they will exist and that the system is not "lossless", more power will have to go in than comes out. On transmission losses we totally agree, I think Qld is around the 72% mark. For this reason I fully support research into better conductors. If we had a superconductor we could use, then we could shut down 2/3 of our power plants and still get the same amount of energy to homes. A big plus, I think.
    2. Solar is improving, but we have to work with what we have, not what we might have in 20 years. From the figures I used above, if 9.2 M-2 generates 1kw and it takes 4 kwh to electolyse 1 litre of water, then 36.8 M-2 of solar panels will provide enough power to electrolyse 1 litre of water per hour. If we assume max power for 10 hours, then 36.8 M-2 will produce enough H2 for 10 litres of water per day. If we need 850,000,000 litres per day, then the area of solar panels needed is Total water / 10 x 36.8. This is therefore 850,000,000/10 x 36.8 or 312,800,000 or 312.8 square kilometres. Both Sydney and Melbourne would need 1,000 square km each. Also this large array has to be near the coast, while we have huge amounts of junk space in the middle, if we put it there we have exactly the same tranmission loss problems that we spoke of in point 1. Has Sydney got a spare 1,000 square km somewhere close to the water? That isn't National Park or forest? I have my doubts. It's not that the idea is that bad, it's just that when you do the numbers, it simply won't work.
    3. Shortfall. The system as described doesn't "store" the H2, but pipes it in a continous fashion, meaning the electrolysis operates 24/7. While the solar panels might supply the energy to make the H2 during the day, how do we supply the H2 at night when domestic demand is greatest? After the sun goes down there will be no solar power and therefore a "shortfall" in power. You would have to have some sort of other power supply to electrolyse the water at night.
    4. The salt is in the system. Quoting from the Adda site www.adda-enterprises.com/HTNwebsite/HP.pdf  ; "Water (usually of salty or brackish origin) is converted to hydrogen and oxygen, through a variety of conventional and futuristic energy generation schemes and other means;"
    5. The plan uses salt water. Under electrolysis the water will break down into H2 and O2, but the NaCl will break down as well, giving off clouds of Chlorine gas. I say again, the system uses salt water, the salt is in the system.
    6. To quote from the letter you linked to in your point 5; 2) Design of a piping network for transportation of hydrogen in gaseous or in liquid form Design of valves and compressors for transportation of hydrogen. 3) Design of valves , compressors and sensors for transportation of hydrogen.
    7. The sensors etc, do not exist, they will have to be developed. The letter also speaks of needing nanopolycarbonates for the pipes, these don't exist and will have to be developed. It can't be done with current technology, that is my point.
    8. What patent? The siteowner in his discussion paper speaks of "Development of the Solar-Seawater to Hydrogen Collector; a proposed invention." He doesn't have an invention, he doesn't have a patent, he has an idea that he thinks might become an invention that he might one day patent. He has nothing. In fact everything is "for patenting", he actually and really has nothing.
    9. Concerning "papers", and making sure we're both on the same page here. I classify a "paper" as one that has gone through peer review for publication. Hence none of the information on the Adda website is a "paper". There are two documents where the author puts forward his ideas and a letter from a professor at RMIT, but no "papers". If there has been a request for a "paper" on this from a Journal, that's fine, although it must be pointed out that Professor Sati N Bhattacharya is a guest editor for the Journal of Polymer Engineering, so a request from there doesn't count for much. Especially since the Editorial Board of that Journal has been shown to operate some very dubious practices in the past.
    10. This means that there are no patents and there are no academic papers on this idea. It's got nothing. If you know of some actual papers, then I'd be happy to read them, but so far, from what I've seen on his website, it's snake oil.
    Cheers.

    0
    ishambat

    John,

    I know for certain that there is a patent on this because my name is on the patent as a co-inventor. There has been a request for a paper by International Association of Hydrogen Energy, but the inventor wanted to get a patent first before submitting the paper in order to prevent plagiarism. With patent in place, the paper is being worked on.

    I am not sure where you get your mathematics regarding the amount of energy that will be needed to break down the water and the resulting size of the installation. What is a fact is that breaking down one mole of H2O creates one mole of hydrogen and one half mole of oxygen, and a mole of hydrogen reacted with half mole of oxygen creates once again one mole of H2O. The first reaction takes in lots of energy; the second reaction produces lots of energy Here is something I found on the Web on this matter:

    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/electrol.html

    It pins the efficiency of the mechanism at 83% (slightly less using current fuel cell technology), which is quite an improvement over technologies we have now.

    I will talk to the inventor regarding the chlorine gas, I have not heard this concern expressed so far and I am sure he has the answer to this question.

    0
    JohnJB

    Sticking with the numbers just for ease of reading;

    1. On the patent, fair enough. I was going by what was on the website where everything is "proposed", maybe it needs updating? What invention is the patent actually for?
    2. If you wish, I'll go through my history and find the links where I got the figures from. Mostly pretty basic Google, things like "How much energy to electrolyse 1 litre of water" and that sort of thing. Then it was a matter of checking the linked articles for their maths. I did find the gas volume figures here though; www.hydrogenappliances.com/Hydrogendata.html , second bit from the bottom.
    3. It's the numbers that kill it. The waste on the usage side is phenomenal. Just for a minute let's suppose that we get 1,000 litres of H2 from a litre of water, so when we burn that hydrogen we'll 1 litre of water back. That's fine until you realise that a toilet uses 9.5 litres per flush. So you have to burn 9,500 litres of H2 just to get enough water to flush the toilet once. You'll burn 400 litres of H2 just to get enough water to make a cup of coffee. See what I'm getting at? It's pretty wasteful way to transport water.
    4. Brisbane water consumption was a hot topic while the drought was on and the number was burned into my skull. :) Current figures are here; www.qwc.qld.gov.au/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=431 , total for all SE Qld is 1,285,200,000 litres per day for the area from the border to the Sunshine Coast and west to Ipswich. Most of our population, but not a really big area. 2, maybe 3,000 square miles.
    5. Good link to the hyperphysics BTW, I do like the idea of fuel cell cars and the efficiency is great, you'll lose a bit more at the electric motors, but it should still be well above the pathetic internal combustion figure.
    6. You might like to read this Physorg article about water usage in a hydrogen economy; www.physorg.com/news111926048.html . Note
    7. that the chlorine problem comes up in the comments section.
      I normally hang out at scientific forums, knocking around with atomic physicists, which maybe is why my manner seems brusque to you. We've seen all sorts of quackery over the years and I'll be straight, this plan and the articles the the inventor wrote have set off my BS detector. You haven't had to invest money into his "idea" have you?
        Cheers.

      0
      ishambat

      I am aware that scientific forums demand rigor, so that's not unexpected to me (though calling this "idiocy" or "stupidity" was a bit over the top).

      The idea of this being a wasteful way to transport water or containing lots of loss at user end is new to me. One benefit from a hydrogen transmission network is that it provides water and energy at once, which means that if implemented fully it will replace both the electric grid and the water delivery infrastructure. This will undoubtedly result in greater efficiency, even if there are costs involved in reacting hydrogen with oxygen.

      The inventor is a very good friend of mine and is a person of high integrity as well as a highly experienced scientist and engineer, so it definitely is not a scam.

      0
      JohnJB

      Again for ease of reading. I really don't know why I can't get paragraph spacing. I've tried both double and triple spacings, but nothing seems to work.

      1. You used the word "stupidity" in the article above, so I didn't think that using it to describe a system that ignored the rules of basic chemistry was over the top. Meh, to me it's only a minor point, I'd rather discuss the science behind the idea anyway. Shall we just put it behind us?
      2. I hope you realise that I agree that distribution of H2 is a good idea theoretically. It fails practically. For example you would waste a lot of power in the afternoon. The kids come home from school, have baths, drinks,etc. This is a time of high water consumption, but not high power consumption. So a lot of the power generated by burning the H2 to get the water for the afternoon is wasted. Later at night, after baths and the dishes are done, we have a time of high power usage but low water usage. So the water collected from the burning of the H2 goes to waste.
      3. It should also be remembered that you are burning the H2 in air, not pure O2. Since air contains both CO2 and Nitrogen, there is the distinct possibility that amounts of Hydrogen Cyanide (HCN) will be produced. Not something you really want in the air in your house, or in your drinking water.
      4. He might be a friend of yours, but sorry, I don't know him from Adam. I can only go on what is presented, and what is presented is well intentioned, unworkable fantasy that ignores basic science. It may not be a scam, but he may being blinded by his idea. That can happen to anybody.

      0
      ishambat

      OK, I've got answers to these questions. The inventor said that they are good questions that have given further directions, and both he and I would like to thank you for raising them.

      Regarding your question about distribution of H2: The water produced from the reaction will be stored in a tank and will be available for use on demand, regardless of when the energy is produced. So that while both water and energy will be produced when the energy is demanded, water will be available for use whenever it is needed, even in times of day when energy is not consumed.

      Regarding the amount of solar power required: the efficiency of the mechanism being what it is (which is about 70%), it will be an efficient use of energy, significantly more so than the present system.

      Regarding the chlorine gas production: Chlorine, being a heavy gas, is easily separated from oxygen and can be used to produce HCl as a byproduct of the reaction, with HCl being sold to industrial clients. The last idea came as a response to your question.

      Regarding the volumes of gas involved in the reaction: the volume of hydrogen in the pipes depends upon the pressure of the transmission. The oxygen gas taken from the air will be replaced through regular diffusion and will also equal the amount of oxygen released into the atmosphere during the electrolysis reaction, resulting in oxygen concentration remaining the same. 

      Regarding Hydrogen Cyanide being created during hydrogen burning: Fuel cells for reacting hydrogen with oxygen do not produce hydrogen cyanide or else they won't be on the market. This question led to further thought, which led to a conclusion that an added possible benefit for rural users would be to install, along with oxygen fuel cells, the nitrogen fuel cells that would react hydrogen with nitrogen to create fertilizers.

      Regarding the inefficiency of flushing water produced from this reaction down the toilet: the main product from the reaction is energy, and water from the reaction would be used primarily for such things as industry, making soft drinks, and drip irrigation. The main purpose of Hydrogen Transmission Network is transmission of hydrogen for creation of energy. The initial applications of HTN will be for transmission to remote areas, where people don't use 9.5 litre flush toilets, and in other applications of HTN water would continue to be available through water delivery system until this technology becomes advanced enough for that to be an efficient process.

      Again, thank you for raising the questions that you have raised; they have given us ideas on how to supplement the present design.

      0
      JohnJB

      I really wish I could get the paragraphs to work, because using the numbers makes it look like I'm being needlessly specific. However it's the only way to stop everything running together into an unreadable jumble, so here goes. (I must add that at all times I've been assuming that as the inventor suggests, the H2 network replaces the standard pwer and water grid.)

      • Hydrogen Cyanide. Agreed on fuel cells. The original discussion paper on the inventors website also mentions using a form of steam engine that burns the H2 in air. It is this process that can produce the Cyanide, not the fuel cells. As the steam engine was to produce both power and water for the home, cyanide in the water is a problem.
      • Water being stored in a tank. Fair enough, works for me. Of course that would mean the fuel cells and steam engines will have to be above the tanks, or you will waste power pumping the water up into the tank. But it works. Backyard water towers like we used to have.
      • Re the solar power. Efficiency isn't the problem, where are you going to put the hundreds of square miles of solar panels? Put another way, a series of questions have to be answered in order; How much water will have to be produced for consumption? How much H2 is needed to produce that much water? How much power is required to produce that amount of H2? How many square miles of Solar panels are needed to produce the power? Where do you put them? Efficiency is not part of the equation.
      • Follow on. It's like saying that we'll build 10,000 houses to solve the housing problem. Making the blocks smaller would pack them in a bit tighter and therefore be "more efficient", but doesn't answer the question; "Where the hell are we going to put 10,000 houses?" So the original question remains unanswered.
      • Chlorine gas. Please get him to talk to a chemist. For each atom of H2 produced the system will produce an atom of Cl. The only way to make the Cl into HCl is to combine it with H2. It will take your entire H2 production to turn the Cl into HCl and there won't be any left for the pipes. Add to that that HCl is corrosive and combines readily with atmospheric H2O to produce HydroChloric Acid. Any gas leak of the HCl will result in a very dangerous rain of HydroChloric acid.
      • There is also a limit as to how much HCl that industry will want to buy. I suspect that you would be producing far more than industry would want and then what do we do with it? Where will we store it or how will we make it safe?
      • Volumes of gas. He has missed the point. The O2 is totally irrelevent. The point is the sheer volume of H2 that has to be produced. Using the SE Qld figures I quoted earlier.
      • H2 from 1 litre of water (and amount of H2 that must be burned to make 1 litre of water) 1337 litres. (1 litre of water produces about 55.5 moles of H2. 1 mole of ideal gas at room temp has a volume of about 24.1 litres, so 1 litre of water will produce 1337 litres of H2.) Water needed for SE Qld daily = 1,285,200,000 litres. Therefore daily H2 to produce that much water = 1,285,200,000 X 1337 = 1,718,312,400,000 litres of H2.
      • Put it another way. 1 litre of water contains 55.5 moles of H2. 1 mole of H2 weighs about 1 gram, so the electrolysis of 1 litre of water gives about 55.5 grams of H2. We need 1,285,200,000 litres of water daily which will require 71,328,600,000 moles of H2, or 71,328 tons of H2 every day. This daily use is equal to roughly half of the worlds current annual production of H2.
      • And that's for Brisbane. Sydney and Melbourne are far bigger and need more water. Both of these cities would require daily H2 production that equals the current worldwide annual production.
      • Re toilets. The only people who don't use flush toilets are those without adequate water supplies. As described this system is to supply water and power to regional as well as remote areas. I assure you that people in regional and country Australia do indeed use flush toilets, just like the people in the big cities do. :) I've travelled around this big land of ours quite a bit, and except where I needed to take a shovel, every town used flush toilets.
      • Ishambat, you friend described a system that was to replace both the current water and power distribution network. He can't go back and say "Oh, I didn't mean toilets". That's called "Moving the Goalposts". He either wants to replace the current system, or he does not, there is no middle ground here. By going piecemeal, we might as well just build a couple of new dams with a hydro station in them and use the current network, that would be easier and cheaper than building an H2 network.
        Reading the answers I don't think your friend is a scam, although I was wondering for a while, I think he's a dreamer. This isn't a bad thing, because without the dreamers we wouldn't be where we are as a society. I'm not trying to shoot down his dream, I'm trying to show the practical problems with it. If the practical problems can be solved, then the dream is much more likely to become reality.
          Cheers. 

        0
        JohnJB

        • Sorry, I stuffed up the figures on H2 production. The amount required for Brisbane annually would be about half the worlds current annual production. Likewise the annual requirements of Sydney and Melbourne would each roughly equal the current world annual production.
        • While this makes the figure lower it still gives very bad figures for the Chlorine gas. Due to it's heavier atomic weight, for every ton of H2 you make, you will produce 35 tons of Cl gas.
        • This means that the Brisbane plant, to produce the 26 million tons of H2 annually is also going to create 911,215,200 tons of Chlorine gas.
        • Ouch. The figures ain't looking good.

        0
        ishambat

        All right, thank you. I'll pass on the points that have been raised and will get back with you.

        0
        ishambat

        I have forwarded the question about the area of solar panels to the inventor.

        Regarding chlorine, I can answer that question myself. There is much more water than there is NaCl in the water, so producing HCl would definitely not take the entire H2 derived from the water.

        Once again, thanks for insightful questions, they are useful in what we are doing.

        0
        JohnJB

        • Sorry mate, but the NaCl in the water is irrelevent. Electrolysis of sea water will produce 1 atom of Chlorine for every atom of Hydrogen. The full formula being
        • 2NaCl + 2H2O -> 2Na + 2OH + Cl2 + H2.
        • To change the Chlorine into Hydrogen Chloride, you need to add Hydrogen
        • Cl2 + H2 -> 2HCl
        • So to convert all the Chlorine into Hydrogen Chloride would take all of the generated hydrogen. Of course, you may not want to convert all of it, you might want to leave some as Chlorine gas.
          I'm glad you're taking this in the spirit it is meant, constructive criticism. Something that hasn't been mentioned so far is that using sea water will drop the electrolysis efficiency to under 50% because half the power is going to be used splitting the NaCl and not the H2O.   Something that may be worth looking into is large scale reverse osmotic membranes. These are self cleaning and have no moving parts while filtering the water from "brine" to "pure". This would eliminate the Chlorine problems and double efficiency. You can still use sea water as the initial source, you're just running it through a filter first.

        0
        ishambat

        John,

        Thank you very much for that idea. I have forwarded it to the inventor. It may very well be useful in creating the design.

        0
        JohnJB

        • No problem. I'm not trying to rip his idea to shreds, even if it might look that way. By finding the practical problems for an idea, practical solutions can then be found and the idea goes ahead.
        • It strikes me that an osmotic membrane if used close to the shore would be able to use the action of the waves and tides to "pump" the water in.
        • I'm sort of picturing a large facility on stilts in the area where the surf breaks. Underneath is an area totally enclosed by the membrane giving a pool of "pure" water. The electrolysis equipment would be underneath the building and sticking down into the pool.
        • I don't know if that's what he has in mind, but that's the mental picture I have at the moment.

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        YankeeJim
        First Flagged at 3:13 AM, Oct 26, 2010 by YankeeJim
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