So, this God then...

by generaldecay | August 31, 2009 at 04:42 am
535 views | 38 Recommendations | 38 comments
There is a peculiar kind of willful ignorance in claiming that God is all-powerful and all-loving while simultaneously either ignoring or rationalizing the fact of suffering and evil in the world. Either God is all-powerful or he is not, and if he is, he cannot possibly be loving or good.

This blog piece articulates much of what I think myself about 'God' and religion and the notion that there is a higher being somewhere up there looking after us all. If that is the case... what is ze all about?

What loving parent knowingly and willfully allows his children to suffer and die of preventable diseases or to torture each other to death? What kind of wise, benevolent creator makes rapists, sadists, the ebola virus, AIDS, and Robert Mugabe?

...

So, why does God allow his children to suffer?


Well, yes, why? I would love for someone to explain it to me. I have asked this question of many people, many times, and I have yet to hear a coherent or acceptable explanation. My years of Catholic instruction taught me only that we're not to question why God does as he does because we would never understand.

To hell with that, say I. (Pun intended.)

If God does exist, and ze willingly inflicts pain on countless of hir 'children', then ze's not the kind of person I want in my life at all.

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1
Paschen

It is a good Post Alice. However, some what simplistic and unfair to both sides, may that be the Atheist or the devoted believer.

One of the arguments in favour of the existance of God along with hate and soffering even though God is all loving is actually simple and in scripture.

It is called "freedom" God gave Humans the Freedom to be and shows there way and he gave Satan that same right as well, after all Satan was his beloved angel before turning against God with malice and greed for power.

The Atheist that bases his or her rezoning on logic and science would argue it has nothing to do with God, may he exist or not, even if all mighty why would he interffear with Humanity's pittyfull plied on one hand being demanding and on the other refusing to follow the laws laid out for them by God.

Gandhi understood that rather well and made a great speech as he addressed the Lords in London reminding them what it meant to be a follower of God. And this even though he him self was Hindu and yet he said, "would Christian follow the laws of their own religion, then all Hindu would convert to Christianity."

May God exist or not, is actually not the problem nor the solution for any of this.

The problem lays with Humanity and its arrogance and greed.

1
generaldecay

Thanks Paschen.

Yes, I oversimplified on purpose because, for me, the fundamental question is about good versus evil and how this God can seem to allow so much evil.

Another example:

Friends and neighbours of the McCann family often say that they have to 'pray harder' for the return of Madeline McCann. Pray harder?! I have to ask what God demands that you pray harder because the praying that you're doing isn't quite good enough. This perspective baffles me so, for me, it really does come down to the very simple question of what sort of 'person' this God is. 

1
Paschen

Prayers may not bring back their child. However, those prayers may help them in a more spiritual way and keep them sane of mind in spite of the horror they endure. 

Prayers are a powerful metal exercise, much like meditation can be. I would actually encourage such prayer in times of hardship and despair even if I personally have great doubts about all religions and Gods or God.


1
generaldecay

Yes, I have no issue with prayer at all (each to their own etc.) for any sort of comfort in times of need is warranted.

1
albertacowpoke

The mystery of God is what we personally believe it to be.  Some people may find peace with their prayers.  He is an abstract supported by scriptures.  If you look at the ten commandments, they give basic laws for human decency.  The knowledge that there is a God gives some people Hope.  I believe that is what the McCann's are trying to say by praying harder.

No one, including God has asked them to.  It is their way of dealing with the situation at hand.  God, for believers and non believers will always be a mystery.  Science can explain many things but science is also stretched in explaining how it started all, despite of evolution.

In the past religions have been used as a form of control of the uneducated masses. With a more educated population some of those practices have been called to questioning. 

I think God is what we personally want to make Him or not make Him.  It is a personal choice.

1
generaldecay

Thanks for this ACP. :)

I'll ask my question another way. I hear a lot of Catholics, like those quoted above, saying that they must pray harder. Now, while God may not tell them they must do so, it still seems to be a prevailing perspective among the [Catholic] faithful. So, if I ask my question another way, what sort of God is it that people believe in whereby their current kind of praying is not good enough and they must try harder. That strikes me a very frightening deity. 

Does that make more sense?

In the past religions have been used as a form of control of the uneducated masses. With a more educated population some of those practices have been called to questioning.

Indeed. And that's no bad thing in my book.

0
albertacowpoke

Religion, like anything else we deal with should be questioned.  We all know what unconditional following has done.  Having said that, I don.t begrudge people who are deeply religious.  For some of them it guides their lifes and brings them peace. 

As far as praying too hard goes, by whose standard?  I remember a Lutheran catechism when I was younger that taught that praying was a private thing, between you and your God. 

0
Grace H

It has been explained to me in a way I find for now placating. That everything boild down to the idea of free will. Free will exists because we were created to love God and love man. However, with free will comes the potential for all the travesties in the world. But we are free to choose God. If he were to directly prevent any ill he would violate this freedom, and we would have no point in existence; as we cannot love fellow man in theory without first loving and being loved by God.

2
Anonymously Given

Yes, the "free will" idea plays a part in the plan.  If every injustice  were intercepted, we would not be playing much part in our own  lives ... The more important idea though, is the relative shortness of life as  compared to eternity.  In other words, God does not allow injustice  and the suffering begotten by it to continue for very long, relative  to the total span of life.  As humans, we see our earthly existence  as  "all that there is", while in fact it is but a blink in the temporal  landscape as viewed by the eye of God.

1
Sputnic

Although God in the Quran tells people to learn and seek education. Does God want us to be atheists ? Plenty of clever people believe in God. Why are so many scientists reverting to Islam based on the scientific miracles of the Quran ?

0
eastvanray

I can only speak for Canada and here in Canada scientists are not flocking to Islam.  In fact, no on is flocking to Islam according to recent sensus data.

0
info.star

Salaam,

I think you may find your sensus data to be incorrect, I was watching a youtube video the other day. A young girl had recently converted to Islam against the wishes of her parents, and was in the mind to create a regular thing on youtube to tell of her difficulties.

She was from Canada. I shall of course look for more and post here regularly, InshaAllah

0
eastvanray

One person.  And you have no link as proof.  And Youtube?  This is the basis of your statement?  I bet I can find people converting to satanism in Canada too.  It doesn't make it a trend.

1
theswamme

God is Awesome. He created us and gave us Free Will. Free Will changes everything, God did not want to control us like Robots. He provided us with the Tools and materials to either build up or Tear down, To Kill or to Love, To Follow Jesus or be led Astray.

God does not inflict pain and suffering on his children, People using their Free Will to commit those acts are doing it. God does not control every breathe of every man or woman, He allows us to Sow the seeds We choose (Free Will) . God judges those people (All of us) when they come before him. He wil not stop a murderer from murdering, just like he Will not stop a thief from stealing, or an Adulterer from coveting, these things are the Tests that we must to pass to enter his Kingdom. We are Free to commit Good or Evil until our day of judgement, Before Who ? Before God, and at that time your Free Will shall be taken into account. 

1
generaldecay

I admire your faith but I fear that I just don't buy it. While I accept that free will is responsible for many of the world's ills, it is not for others. Natural disasters, for example, in which countless people lose their family, homes and indeed their lives, can be explained less easily by 'free will'.

I question how this God can let that happen, over and over again.

Another of my lessons in 'Catholic school' was that God does these things to 'try us'. To try us?! Why? Because we're not obedient enough, pious enough, something enough?

1
theswamme

Thanks for your opinion.

Just like Free Will determines a persons fate. God does not control the Weather, Tides or Natural Disasters. Its like when you add two elements together, there is a reaction, and you have something different.  The reaction could be Cool Aide if those elements are Water, Sugar and Flavoring. Well God Created Earth with All its Elements and they interact in different ways. Resulting in different weather patterns, Creating Oil, Gold, Diamonds. God did not Create each of these things Independantly, God was very aware that when he put this Earth in motion that things would come together to create New things. For every action there is a reaction. Same with Tornadoes, Typhoons, Forest fires. God does not control everything, It is the mixng of different elements that determine the outcome. In the end God wanted  to provide us with the Splendor of  All things but not to control Any, nor each and every Action.

God does not live in time as we know it, Our life expectancy is NOTHING compared to Eternity. If we did not have to Try, it would lead to Greed, Lust and more of those other fleshly needs. To have all is to be Spoiled, why would God want us to be spoiled, Spoiled is rotten. The only obedience God requires is Faith and Love. All we must do is Accept, Accept that we cant control it, Accept that it is not for us to decide, Accept the teachings of Christ, and you to will be saved.

0
info.star

Salaam,

Its not that simple I am afraid, I think that God does these things for many reasons, one of which is without some people somewhere suffering how else would he judge the rest of us?

We are all to be judged on our individual actions and deeds, one of the things we are to be judged on is how we help others, do we feed those that are poor? do we send money to those who are affected by a natural disaster?

Also you could argue that those countries that consume the most, that are responsible for the majority of the gasses and climate change emitted etc are the cause of the decline in other countries, the worse global warming gets the more natural dissasters will appear.

So you could argue that we created the state other countries are in. Should God pull us out of every problem we cause ourselves? Why do we insist on blaming God every time something goes wrong? maybe we should take responsibility, after all we seem as humans to blame God when it suits us, then deny his very excistance.

0
Colonel Boyle

OK. So bad men have the free will to act badly.

But where is God's love for those who suffer under such men? It's hard to see the handiwork of God's majesty in the workings of the Gulags or the Killing Fields or the Death Camps. So Hitler had "free will" to kill millions. But the critical point is that those millions found no defender in God. What price their suffering and death?

"Free will" is merely the sticking-plaster excuse of people who have been confronted by what humanity is capable of now that technology has reached the point where mass exterminations are fairly easy to organise and carry out.

While God is picking His toenails, evil is committed. Either He exists and can intervene but won't, or he doesn't exist and can't. Either way, I find little reason to place any faith in him.

0
theswamme

Thanx for speaking up for the suffering.

God will punish the wrong doers and Bring those struck down by suffering into his Kingdom, Heaven, At the time of reckoning. All suffering is felt by the believers of Christ, and we Know, understand and Accept that it is not for us to Judge and that The Lord will.

1
jazzyzazzy

Remember.! the bible was written by man.

0
Sputnic

Some of the Bible was written by man, most was written by God. Following all of Gods messengers is a very good idea, the first two commandments given to Moses, for example, they are among the best of the Bible !

0
eastvanray

Really?  Written by God himself?  Now that is funny!  Does God use a quill pen or blood when he composes earthly documents?  What is God's favorite parchment?  What is God's official language?

1
info.star

Salaam, to all especially the author of this piece

An interesting opinion especially as when I was young and attending church as a Christian with my mother I wondered the very same thing.

I used to think I know that God excists but why do so many people suffer, especially the little babies in Africa (as i have always had a overwhelmingly strong love of little ones)

I considered this for many years, asking and never recieving an answer that satisfied my curiosity.

Then about 2 years ago now I began to become very interested in the religion of Islam, due to the fact that I was working with many Muslims and noticed the love they had for their deen and they spoke at length on religious topics such as this one the author is questioning.

So I began my own research and began to find that all my questions could be answered in a logical and definate mannor within the religion of Islam.

Thus began my personal conversion to Islam

Now to attempt to answer your question, but forgive me I am no Scholar, this is just from what I have studied myself

I shall begin by giving you a very short introduction to the basic beliefs of the begining of creation which was where evil made its first appearance according to Islam.

In the begining Allah (god) created the Angels and the Jinn.

Here I would like to point out to you that although some comments on here claim that Satan was an Angel the Quran teaches us that he was from amoung the Jinn, I will explain this later.

You will be familier with the term Angel but perhaps not of Jinn, the Jinn are beings that we cannot see, their are good and bad Jinn, the good asist us, the bad help Shaitan, Iblis (satan) the strongest of them in his never ending job of misguidance to mankind.

Now when Allah created Adam he ordered all the inhabitants of heaven to bow down to him, the Angels complied as they have no "free choice" and can only do as Allah bids them to do. The only one who did not bow was Satan.

Now you may well be wondering, "well if Satan was not an Angel what was he doing in Heaven?" He was their as he had an elivated status due to the ammount of prayer he directed towards Allah so Allah liked him very much.

Now to prove that Satan was not an Angel, I would ask you to think, that if Angels have no free will/choice (as even the bible states) and Satan was an Angel, how could he refuse to Kneel to Adam on the order of Allah?

How does this tie in to the first of evils, well when Satan refused to kneel it was because he thought himself superior to Adam, he said, "You made him of clay and me of the smokeless fire I am better than him" This is what we call arogance, which in Islam is a sin, And is considered a sin amoung all religions.

As a result of this Allah evicted Satan from Heaven promising him a painfull torment. As Satan was angry he vowed to lead as many of Allahs creation astray thus making them enter Hell alongside him on the day of Judgement.

Now Allah allowed him to do this by promising him respite untill the day of Judgement where all of us will recieve our rewards or punishments based on our deeds and actions.

So Satan goes about the place leading us to sin which angers Allah as he desires the best for his creation.

Now you may well ask, "ok, if Satan is leading us astray then why is Allah angry at us?" Well this is easy to answer, because we are listening to him (Satan) and commiting all kinds of sins that expressly go against the teachings of the three devine religions, (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) Sins such as not giving charity, murder, adultery etc.

Now in Islam we have a belief that every single thing that we do or say is recorded so that for every single good deed we do we will get the reward for it and the same as punishment for the bad.

We also have a belief that their has to be suffering for some, 1, to see what they do as a result of that suffering and 2, as a test to those who are not suffering, do they help them, give them money , food etc as if you think about it we all have to be assessed as to weither we deserve the hell or the Jannah (paradise) based on our individual deeds and actions.

At this point I would like to use something said by a gentelman called Shiekh Yusuf Estes who is a convert to Islam from Christianity. He used to be a Christian preacher and missionary untill he was guided to Islam, he now gives lectures and is a scholar of the deen

He says,

"When Allah created the Heaven and the Hell, he created the inhabitants of both places. He could have immediatly deposited them in their lodging places, the ones in the Junnah (heaven) would have been so happy, saying, "wow, we must have been really great guys". The ones in the Hell would have said, "What did we do" a ligitimate complaint, dont you think?"

Based on this statement it shows us that the reason we are here is to live a  life that is observed, (by Allah) so that we can be judged in the hereafter), it is almost as if we are on trial and we either get a "get out of jaol free card" (paradise) or we get sent to joal (hell)

So you see if Allah created Good (as their is much of it in this world) their has to be evil, everything in this life has to be balanced, up, down, left, right etc, as a test to all human beings.

If this world was only good what was the point of Hell being created?

I hope you find this helpful,

Asalam Alaykum (peace be unto you)

1
generaldecay

Thanks info.star for the information and for your perspective. It doesn't really answer any of my simple questions, though. I don't accept that in order for there to be good, there has also to be evil. Why should that be the case? Because Allah says so? That takes me back to my original question - what sort of God insists on evil?

Re. the 'test' you mentioned: I shall quote from another comment I made above: Another of my lessons in 'Catholic school' was that God does these things to 'try us'. To try us?! Why? Because we're not obedient enough, pious enough, something enough?

Also, the Bible says something rather different about the 'beginning of the world' (Adam/ Eve etc.). Is the Islamic perspective 'more correct' with the Angels the Jinn than the Christian perspective of Adam and Eve? (This is another imponderable I think about often.) And let's not even get started on evolution, which is the most plausible explanation of the lot. The evolutionary argument comprehensively knocks both Islamic and Christian perspectives out of the water.

1
Paschen

I agree with you here Generaldecay, For good to exist we do not need evil.

The pigmy and some other tribes around the globe would be prove of that, they have no God nor any politics, and until recently they knew no evil and are still today the most gentle and generous people as well as the kindest and most equal I have ever meet in my life.

There are proof that for good the exist its counter part evil is not necessary. 

Education and know how have nothing to do with it either nor does wealth or health.

From what I know, learned and saw from those tribes, some of the anthers may be fund in the over population. Evil appears when ever we are over populated and live detached from Nature it self.

1
israeli.agent

"Evil appears when ever we are over populated and live detached from Nature it self."

A valid point, Paschen. A very very valid and important point. Anything in excess constitutes to evil. Say it is money, food, population, ambitions, faith, thought or actions.

Try to earn more money than you need , you deprive someone else of that.

Eat too much, you are making someone else hungry, by taking the food he is dying for.

Reproduce more and more so that you can just see the increase the ranks your country / religion / creed/ tribe / group, you are using "all the resources" those should have been rightfully belonged and gone to some one else.

Harmony and balance is the essence of good , the nature. You break it and there comes the evil.


.Agent.

0
Colonel Boyle

I agree in sentiment with what you are saying, but as a point of fact few resources are finite in such a way to make for a zero-sum game where it means that one's gain is necessarily another's loss.

For instance, I might eat too much food but it doesn't follow that that deprives another. Distributing food to rural Africa is made more difficult by circumstances of terrain, infrastructure and climate. The answer is not for me to scrape half the food from my plate, put it in a jiffy bag and post it to Africa. The answer is for greater efficiency in distribution. And that means more intensive farming and urbanisation.

Unfortunately, that is a truth that is unpalatable in these times so we fall back on simplistic moral rubrics and bewail modernity.

More worryingly, there is a hidden evil in the idea that you should stop people "earning more than they need" or "eating too much". Those thoughts suppose that we have both the knowledge and moral superiority enough to make that claim. Where does that lead us? To a position where an elite is permitted to decide who earns what, who eats what and who goes where. In short: a tyranny.

1
info.star

Salaam,

Hmmm, this is why all of these things are stipulated under Shari'a Law.

To prevent both excesses

1
info.star

Salaam,

I feel sad when people who seem to have very little Knowledge of the Bible speak of it and the religion of Christianity. 

I did not mention Adam and Eve as the post and your questions did not require me to do so.

I was refering to before Adam and Eve, the first evil to be committed was the arogance of Iblis.

I am surprised that a person such as yourself before refuting subject matter did not at least look into the facts.

The book of Job in the Bible describes the Angels worshiping God as he was creating the World, and as Adam and Eve were created after the creation of the world the angels must have come first.

I did not say that God insists on evil, I said it is the balance. If everyone was good and did not commit evil then we would all be going to Heaven and sadly that is not true.

Clearly we are not obedient enough, pious enough, something enough to quote you as if we were why are their so many people in the world who are poor? why in the west do 3% of people own 97% of the wealth? are they pious? If they were they would give charity as all the devine religions prescribe and the collective people would not be so poor.

This is what I ment by a test, the people whom God grants money to will be answerable for what they do with said money, do they use it to benifit the wider community? or are they selfish.

What needs to be understood here is we all have a level of responsibility to everyone else, it is not about living for ourselves, we need to understand for our actions their is a consiquence and the consiquence is not always felt by us. An example would be the waste that the west lets into the atmospheer has an effect on global warming and as a result freakish weather is felt all around the globe.

So far as Islam being right and Christianity wrong they both bring the same message of one God and to only worship him, Islam and Christianity are the same in the majority of areas and only differ in a few, the problem is most people do not know this, they have no knowledge of Islam.

You said you think of this often, is Christianity or Islam right or wrong? the answer is neither but the religion of Christianity has been altered through time and this is testified to by many Christian scholars, over 3000 translation errors in the Bible at its last evaluation.

If you have any querys on Islam I would be very happy to explain things to you, any misconceptions you may have. Funny I have offered so many people to explain things to them no one has ever asked me anything though.

Now let us go to evolution, we evolved from monkeys right? I will ask you one question, when are the rest of the monkeys gonna follow then?

 

1
Lou Covey

These discussions always ask why God allows so much evil in the world, but no one ever asks, " What if God is NOT allowing certain evil?  What evil is God hold back that we never see?  Every year there are storms and earthquakes and floods and other natural disasters where no one is hurt or loses property.  One of the most massive wildfires in the history of Santa Cruz County in California was recently contained without the loss of a single life or home.Most of the evil we see in the world is man-made and encouraged by man.  God doesn't stick needles in the arms of junkies, or encourage spousal abuse or spread sexually transmitted diseases.  People do.  And there are plenty of God-given reasons why you should avoid those practices, yet people continue to do them.  God doesn't force people to live in flood plains, or active earthquake faults or in the paths of hurricanes, yet God gets blamed for the heartache that comes when people just flat out refuse to accept the warnings that are very clear.Most people don't thank God for all the good things in their life, but they are very quick to blame him for the consequences of their own actions or the actions of their neighbors or governments.  Sometimes the only thing God can do is contain the collateral damage that we inflict.

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First Flagged at 5:02 AM, Aug 31, 2009 by Paschen

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