War Crimes Trials for Israelis for Gaza? Almost impossible

by 158 | January 25, 2009 at 09:17 am

404 views | 6 Recommendations | 28 comments

The International Criminal Court in The Hague has no jurisdiction to investigate in the Gaza Strip, as it is not a state. Though the Palestinian Authority has been functioning as an interim sovereign polity since 1993, it was forced out of Gaza last year by Hamas after the Islamists won an election.

And while Israel has not signed the Rome Statute that enshrined the ICC, it can still be investigated, but that would require a U.N. Security Council mandate. Any such proposal would probably be vetoed

by Israel's ally, the United States.

This is a difficult question. How

can a fair trial be held for real

war crimes without convicting

people simply for being Jewish?

Most proponents of Israeli war crimes

trials blissfully ignore Arab war crimes.

""International calls to investigate Israel over alleged war crimes in the Gaza Strip prompted Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Sunday to promise military personnel state protection from foreign prosecution.

"The commanders and soldiers sent to Gaza should know they are safe from various tribunals and Israel will assist them on this front and defend them, just as they protected us with their bodies during the

Gaza operation," Olmert said.
.

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158

at 09:51 on January 25th, 2009

It is possible some country or organization could hold biased "trials" which would accomplish nothing. This may happen.

Heritage

at 11:19 on January 25th, 2009

Highly unlikely. The only course of action, I believe, is to Boycott Israel. Our governments, international law, the UN have all proven unwilling or unable to take action. It is up to individuals to pursue a peaceful boycott against state sponsored terror in order to end the Occupation of Palestine.

René

at 12:53 on January 25th, 2009

Personally I'd rather boycott Saudi goods, as well as Iranian, for supporting Hamas. Oh? What? The only thing they got is oil? Hmmm. Past time to get off that supply.

158

at 13:45 on January 25th, 2009

Yes,if we are going to be fair. Stop using all middle east oil because not one oil producing country there protects human rights.

158

at 13:49 on January 25th, 2009

I agree this is unlikely.

I also agree that you have a right to call for a boycot of Israel and Israel has a right to not allow supplies to cross Israel going to Hamas.

djsblack

at 11:34 on January 25th, 2009

They could do it, but it would have no holding and no jurisdiction. so essentially you're correct.

158

at 13:46 on January 25th, 2009

I agree. This is just anti Jewish propaganda. If it was serious they would be calling for trials for Hamas also.

con10t

at 10:24 on January 25th, 2009

Israel disrespects international law and perhaps fears it due to its post-1967 actions against human rights and possible war crime, by not recognizing the International Criminal Court.

Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs Legal Division officially denies the legality and jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court set up to prosecute war crimes, when Israel states as its excuse for not signing on to the treaty: "...along with many other states which have not ratified the treaty, Israel is closely following the development of the court to see whether indeed it will genuinely prove to be impartial and effective, and whether, in light of this, it can ratify at a later stage."

The International Criminal Court states its purpose, ratified by the majority of nations, including Germany, France, Finland, Canada, Italy, Ireland, Switzerland, UK, Japan, South Korea, Brazil, Columbia, Argentina, Mexico, Uganda, South Africa, Ghana, Kenya, Australia as:

The International Criminal Court (ICC) is an independent, permanent court that tries persons accused of the most serious crimes of international concern, namely genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. The ICC is based on a treaty, joined by 108 countries.

For what reason does Israel not accept and sign the treaty recognizing the International Criminal Court? The Israeli website only mention speculation and prejudgement concerning the legal ethics of the nations involved, and thereby Israel slanders countries listed above?

For what reason does Israel not recognize the International Criminal Court? What could they be denying, concealing, avoiding, if not Israel's disrespect and disregard for human rights and escape for nations that harbor and commit war crime? Israel's protection of its war criminals from international prosecution, is certainly the most obvious reason to not sign the treaty, using as an excuse, the Israeli statement on their website that simply accuses countries like Canada and Switzerland and South Korea, South Africa, Australia, and many others of not being capable of serving international justice?

The war crimes Israel commits in Gaza and their numerous past war crimes in Lebanon and Palestine are the most likely reason Israel avoids this balanced and accepted international court, and therefore, Israel not speaking up against the current war crimes that the court is prosecuting under the leadership of the current International Criminal Court President, the Canadian Judge Philippe Kirsch.

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your agrument that being Jewish is equivalent to being a war criminal in the eyes of the world court is total disrespect for the Holocaust. You exploit the great and grave suffering of milions of wonderful people who just happened to be Jewish, by using their torture and extermination and massacre as a way to further the massacres and war crimes today in Gaza, against Gazans and Palestinians by Israel. There is no such thing as a Jewish or a German or an Arab war crime. There are war criminals and that does not mean every one of a particular nationality or faith is complicite.

158

at 10:25 on January 25th, 2009

Until you condemn Hamas war crimes you have no credibility. All you can do is repeat the same one sided talking points. It means nothing. HAMAS SAID THEY WILL MURDER JEWISH CHILDREN WORLD WIDE. Is that Ok with you?

The point here was that court has no jurisdiction.

Why do you not accept that murdering Jewish children is a war crime? Hamas is even now protecting dozens of murders of Jewish children.

You are bei g hypocritical in discussing respect. Your whole attitude in posts condemns Jews as a whole and ignores Hamas murders of Jewish Children.

djsblack

at 11:49 on January 25th, 2009

So why hasn't the ICC prosecuted the Sudanese government for Genocide and War Crimes? Oh yes--because it's an Islamic regime.

Roy C

at 12:21 on January 25th, 2009

Con10T,

Simple majority rule by nations is not freedom, and is not democracy. The ratification of the treaty that set up that international court is highly problematic. What is due process here?

We fought the American Revolution because taxation without representation was tyranny. We in the US created a constitution that got ratified by the member states, meaning that state legislatures and governors, people elected in governments of the people, by the people, for the people got to approve this new binding system.

But, to satisfy the left, states such as Israel and the US should sign away their sovereignty and let their citizens be judged by a judicial system that we never designed or approved, with its orders and judgments carried out by an executive system that we had little or no hand in designing, which works with a legislative body that we never elected??

And, beyond all those inanities, we are expected to pay taxes to such an entity, that is, render to this international Caesar what is Caesar's, at least in the collective mind of that Caesar, which would violate every notion of accountability, transparency and notion of keeping government as local and responsive as possible.

Would you please tell me who set up this "balanced and accepted international court" and on what basis you could possibly maintain that this court is "balanced"?

"Numerous war crimes"? Would Hamas or Hezbollah or the mullahs of Iran have any "war crimes"? How about when they shoot rockets at Israel when Gaza was given over to the Arabs to secure land for peace and then the land is used as a base for further attacks? "War crime"?

"Disrespectful to the Holocaust"? On what basis? I will admit that there was no precedent to the trials of the Nazi hierarchy, and I think the war crimes trials were morally justified, but there were no precedents legally and this has created quite a mess.

And, now you want Israel and the US to sign up for this mess. Ain't gonna happen and should never happen.

Last, but not least, I will give you an example of accountabilty and transparency in the judicial system: California.

When California State Supreme Court Justices fail to do their job, we can recall them (fire them in an election) as we did in the case of Chief Justice Rose Bird.

So, that court operates for the people and is accountable to the people. Anything else, all these international courts set up without any accountability is just tyranny of idealists who ironically and hypocritically run inquisitions.

con10t

at 13:25 on January 25th, 2009

Roy C,

you write above:

"Simple majority rule by nations is not freedom, and is not democracy. The ratification of the treaty that set up that international court is highly problematic. What is due process here?"

What is a democratic election if not either 'simple majority rule' or a complex, that is, coalition majority rule?

What is a court if not a bench of judges elected by either a simple or complex majority; or a jury of peers, decided on by the court lawyers? What do you propose otherwise?

It is too easy for you to simply deny and debunk, and arrogantly so with no evidence or gorunds given that lead to your proclamations of an injust court that most of the civilized world recognizes - Canada, UK, France, Germany, Finland, Japan, South Korea, south Africe, Australia... What do you know as fact that will turn your sluff-off proclamation into real factual evidence rather than arrogant slander? Speak up!

When war crimes by Israel are on the docket, you need to propose a way to prosecute, don't you think? Or are you for an anything-goes barbaric anrachic world of violence and mass murder unaddressed because you simply sweep a statement against age old democratic institutions of governance and public trust, safety and law?

You condemn the International Criminal Court ratification euphemistically with your word 'problematic?' Specify, problems always exist, but in the face of the current grave child massacring war crimes of Israel your solution to what you term 'problematic' must be fothcoming to avoid your statement as being blandly callous and arrogantly inhumane. Specify please?

The list of International Criminal Court justices and their countries, I list below. It is clearly well-balanced. Not to balance a court such as the ICC is as you and they both know the death knoll for such a court. If it is not appointing judges that represent the world community fairly, it would be a kangaroo court and pointless. Or are you proposing a lopsided kangaroo court that favors war criminals from specific countries?

The list is obviously to any cogent common person a balanced group of judges rom around the world. The chief justice is Canadian, for starters, and a hardliner against terrorists, as you must also know. Why do you fly in the face of common sense, with lazy unfounded sweeping proclamations when children have been mass murdered, blinded, maimed, traumatized, and burned with white phosphorus by Israel?

These are Israeli war crimes against Palestinians civilians in Gaza pure and simple and the United Nations is right in calling for all decent human beings not to stop until these war crimes by Israel are tirelessly investigated and all Israelis and others who have participated in any way with the white phosphorus Israeli sanctioned military strike and war crime at the UN School in Gaza are asked to defend their actions in an international court of law, one that is as well balanced as the ICC.

Here, the list of judges:
Judge Philippe KIRSCH, President of the International Criminal Court - Canada
Judge Akua KUENYEHIA, First Vice-President - Ghana
Judge René BLATTMANN, Second Vice-President - Bolivia
Judge Georghios M. PIKIS - Cyprus
Judge; Elizabeth ODIO Benito - Costa Rica
Judge Navanethem PILLAY - South Africa
Judge Sang-Hyun SONG - Republic of Korea
Judge Hans-Peter KAUL - Germany
Judge Mauro POLITI - Italy
Judge Erkki KOURULA - Finland
Judge Fatoumata Dembele DIARRA - Mali
Judge Anita UŠACKA - Latvia
Judge Sir Adrian FULFORD - United Kingdom
Judge Sylvia STEINER - Brazil
Judge Ekaterina TRENDAFILOVA - Bulgaria
Judge Daniel David Ntanda NSEREKO - Uganda
Judge Fumiko - Japan
Judge Bruno COTTE - France

Roy C and 158, in your esteemed and timestaking research (cynicsm is provoked, sorry) of the International Criminal Court, which of these judges do you object to, and why? Where is the imbalance that causes you to support Israel ignoring our world court to protect humanity from war crime? Specify. Slowly, your quick and lazy rhetoric looks like empty propaganda? Are you paid to contribute to NowPublic? Are you working for an organization with a vested interest to attack my research and study and concerns so arrogantly as you do? We are talking about kids murdered and burned with white phosphorus sanctioned by the Israeli military in Gaza today! Your casual sluff-off comment require rebuttal, and perhaps they don't deserve any. When you back-up your attack of international criminal justice, a court ratified by 108 countries, the UK, Canada, South Korea, South Africa, Finland, France, Germany, and on and on,. then we can see your credentials ans seriousness to prosecute all war crimes around the globe, and the responsibility that ISrael shows to help us all protect our kids and neighbors from war crimes such as the terrifying horrendous attempts of Israel apparently (not all Israelis as B-Tselem Human Rights Group in Israel will testify to as they expose the war crimes committed by the state of Israel) to aoid prosecution and spiral civil, humane institutions like our financial, credit institutions into an abyss. Do you want that? Why do you not support an International Criminal Court set up in a balanced manner as the one ratified by the vast majority of peace-loving countries against war crimes such as those perpetrated by Israel in Gaza?

158

at 13:53 on January 25th, 2009

Con 10t

"Roy C and 158, in your esteemed and timestaking research (cynicsm is provoked, sorry) of the International Criminal Court, which of these judges do you object to, and why''

When you specifically admit it is a war crime for Hamas to kill Jewish children I will answer that.

158

at 10:49 on January 25th, 2009

Thanks for this, Roy C.

You have put perspective on this and on Con 10t's comments..

This court is not balanced or fair and has never been. If I was a national leader I would not accept its jurisdiction.

con10t

at 12:38 on January 25th, 2009

158,

regarding your replies above.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Revenge is not justice. When the Hutu's commit genocide against the Tutsis, the Tutsi's are not given license to commit war crime. One Holocaust does not justify a retribution Holocaust. Your suggestion is simply cruel and barbaric and denies any possibility for a civil society.

Isreal does not recognize the world's court that is mandated to protect all peoples from war crime. Why? The official Israel Foreign Ministry wepage slanders and castigates the judges of the court, and refuses to sign since they claim these judges are incapable of serving justice. Take a look at the list of justices of the only world court that protects us from war crime nations, and ask yourself why Israel could possible not sign? Obviously they do not want it investigating their own possible war crimes. There can be no other logical reason if you review the list of judges at the International Criminal Court.

www (dot) icc-cpi (dot) int (slash) chambers (slash) judges (dot) html

NOTE: Sorry for the URL above. But one cannot add any links to a 158 post reply. wonder what the glitch is? Please investigate NowPublic system guru, thanks.

Your statement above, 158: "This court is not balanced or fair and has never been. If I was a national leader I would not accept its jurisdiction." is arrogant and slanderous of the balance the ICC was very concerned to achieve. They know very well that any imbalance would not allow them to achieve their mandate of protecting us all from war criminals worldwide from any country who respects human rights and civil social ethics. Why do you not? Please backup your statement I quote with fact and evidence, or take it back. Not to do either makes you a slanderer, and what worse than to slander those who protect us from war crime anywhere in the world?

It is your dictate, not even a judgment of my character - How do you know that I am not Jewish myself? - to slander me as 'condemning Jews as a whole'. Your blank and false accusation also disrespects all decent people of all faiths and walks of life.

Israel in fact elected Hamas. Even the Wall Street Journal reports that Israel helped spawn Hamas:

online (dot) wsj (dot) com (slash) article (slash) SB123275572295011847 (dot) html.

I will be actively reporting any child murder by Hamas once the Israel blockade is lifted and the Palestinians incarcerated, controlled, immobilized and under-fed, under-educated, under-treated medically is lifted.

To incarcerate, siege and blockade a democratic people is to wreak havoc on that democracy. Israel does this and has done this willingly for decades. If you were locked in a room and your liberty, life and prosperity cruelly curtailed, when you then bang on the door or cry for help with homemade freedom-fighting weapons, how can anyone then attribute your character as anything other than demonstrating human nature under the duress of the abuse of an illegal prison. That said, best is you fight for the freedom of Palestine and then wait and see.

The numbers of Palestinian children massacred and maimed by Israel, how can this be so quickly brushed aside. A war crime is not a murder, it is a mass murder, a massacre, or worse. Israel has clearly shown it is subject to prosecution for war crimes. Let the international court decide. Again, check the list of judges.

Watch a video of the ICC Chief Justice, the Canadian Judge Philippe Kirsch here

usaforicc (dot) org (slash) Media (slash) Video/Kirsch1-H.264 (dot) mov
.

djsblack

at 14:39 on January 25th, 2009

It's clear that the U.N. is totally biased against Israel and controlled by the Arab and Islamic block of nations. Furthermore, to have the moral equivalency of Hamas, a genocidal and terrorist nation, of that to Democratic Israel, makes a mockery of fairness, jurisprudence, and the by-laws of the U.N. itself.

Lastly, your rhetoric is not supported by facts, but muscular hyperbole and at time, even unfair and untrue allegations. Just as would have the same tribunal adjudicate and make Israel subject to their Kangaroo court, they haven't even signed on to the jurisdiction of the court.

Lastly, we see that Iran is building nuclear weapons, and are in defiance of over 3 U.N.S.C. resolutions but the U.N. does nothing. Nothing at all--flushing the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaties and the IAEA's and the UN's credibility down the drain.

158

at 20:06 on January 25th, 2009

Con 10t

As I said above, cut the talking points and state specifically that Hamas murdering Jewish children is a war crime and I will respond to this.

Barry Artiste

at 14:12 on January 25th, 2009

Good post 158

158

at 19:54 on January 25th, 2009

Thank you very much.

I think war crimes calls should end to concentrate on a permanent cease fire.

korzac

at 22:41 on January 25th, 2009

Good post

158

at 07:44 on January 26th, 2009

I appreciate you reading and commenting.

judyinjerusalem

at 04:27 on January 26th, 2009

If you're looking for a serious discussion of the whole issue of universal jurisdiction concerning prosecuting "war criminals," go to http://www.globallawforum.org/ViewBlog.aspx?ArticleId=31

158

at 07:43 on January 26th, 2009

Thank you. I will go there.

itstime (not verified)

at 05:06 on January 30th, 2009

What children has Hamas killed? NONE

freewind

at 05:37 on January 30th, 2009

Israel could always get away with their atrocities by pointing a finger at Hamas. However, it has become pitiful. How many children has Hamas killed? None. How many people have Hamas killed? a handful, maybe! How many Palestinians has Israel killed since 1948? millions?

Ariel Sharon's statement in 1956

"With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do," It's high time Israel was trialled for it's atrocities.