What price to be nonbelievers?

by YankeeJim | January 12, 2010 at 04:27 am
370 views | 24 Recommendations | 28 comments

The article here about Somalis entering Yemen and being exploited by Islamic radicals brings to light an issue made crystal clear. Muslims take heart and correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation, but the second book of the Koran, The Cow says:



“[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.”

2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
[2.89] And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers.
[2.90] Evil is that for which they have sold their souls-- that they should deny what Allah has revealed, out of envy that Allah should send down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He pleases; so they have made themselves deserving of wrath upon wrath, and there is a disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers.
[2.91] And when it is said to them, Believe in what Allah has revealed, they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that, while it is the truth verifying that which they have. Say: Why then did you kill Allah's Prophets before if you were indeed believers?”





All of this illustrates that 1) the Koran preaches against nonbelievers, as 2) Allah curses them. That is the source of the intolerance of Muslims toward others. The degree to which Muslims are willing to express and impose their intolerance on others in a free society can become an attack on human liberty and illegal in the eyes of a democratic republic. Therefore, is more explanation needed or can we now draw our conclusions?



"They ordered us to fight the nonbelievers," said Abdul Khadr Salot, 19, a burly ex-fighter with a thin scar across his cheek who escaped from a militant training camp. "Even if your father tells you to leave the Shabab, you must kill him." (from the WP post below)



“Somalis fleeing to Yemen prompt new worries in fight against al-Qaeda

By Sudarsan Raghavan

Tuesday, January 12, 2010

KHARAZ, YEMEN -- Thousands of Somali boys and teenagers fleeing war and chaos at home are sailing to Yemen, where officials who have long welcomed Somali refugees now worry that the new arrivals could become the next generation of al-Qaeda fighters.

As the United States deepens its counterterrorism operations in Yemen, officials are concerned that extremists could find growing Somali refugee camps fertile ground for recruiting. U.S. and Yemeni authorities also fear that Islamist fighters from Somalia could slip into the country among the throngs of refugees, deepening ties between al-Qaeda leaders in Yemen and the particularly hard-line militants of Somalia.

Fleeing a failed state for a failing one, the Somali youths arrive daily in this refugee outpost, which is filled with rickety tents and tales of misery, in the vast desert of southern Yemen. They bring stories of brutality and forced conscription by al-Shabab, an Islamist force battling Somalia's U.S.-backed transitional government.

"They ordered us to fight the nonbelievers," said Abdul Khadr Salot, 19, a burly ex-fighter with a thin scar across his cheek who escaped from a militant training camp. "Even if your father tells you to leave the Shabab, you must kill him."

But this longtime haven is becoming increasingly inhospitable since the United States bolstered its operations here, largely in response to the Yemeni al-Qaeda connections of the Nigerian man who allegedly tried to bomb a U.S. airliner over Detroit on Christmas Day, and to the links of an extremist Yemeni American cleric to the Nov. 5 shootings at Fort Hood, Tex.

Yemen's fragile government fears that Somali fighters from al-Shabab will swell the ranks of Yemen's Islamist militants at a time when links between the Somali group and al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula are growing, according to Yemeni officials and analysts.

As it quietly wages war against extremists in the Arabian Peninsula and parts of Africa, the Obama administration could find itself confronting a unified, regional al-Qaeda on two continents. This would further stretch U.S. resources as Washington fights major conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. It could also push Yemen -- beset by mounting internal strife, poor governance, extreme poverty and dwindling resources -- even deeper into a downward spiral.

"Somalia for Yemen is becoming like what Pakistan is for Afghanistan," said Saeed Obaid, a Yemeni terrorism expert who wrote a book on al-Qaeda's Yemen affiliate. “




Update: I have moved my response to the comments into this story to further stimulate discussion. As I commented:


I know nothing about the Islamic religion which is why I ask for those like you who are more informed to explain things for me. I believe what you are saying and kinow for a fact there are similar sayings in the Bible.


In the end, this is the 21st century and a large part of civilizations know right from wrong. I would go so far to say that the large number of Muslims who are poor and under educated have been left behind by people who are more fortunate.


The answer to ending this war between the impoverished and rich is for the richer nations to work closely with the poor nations to make life more fair in keeping with whatever belief system people want.


For instance, look at the wealth concentration in Saudi Arabia and Dubai; then look next door at Yemin and Somalia. Why such a big difference? Someone is exploiting someone else? Some people have found lucky claim to natural resources while others have not. Some people live in places where they unknowingly outstrip their location's capacity to support them, while some are more in control and better off.


The World is too small to shrug off the differences. Everyone who has the intellect to be responsible must seek greater responsibility.

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1
YankeeJim

Any religion that places itself above the law is an attack against the state.

Any state that embraces a religion as law is an attack against free people and human liberty.

 

1
Uwe Paschen

Why we had to out law certain sects and may have to out law Religions all together. 

Similar proverbs can be fund in the old testament as well.

1
YankeeJim

I would not say that people do not have the right to freedom of belief. But, I do say they have a responsibility for how their beliefs interact in society. If the level of intolerance is confined to their own sect, that is one thing. When the project attack upon non believers, then that may become intollerable aggression.

1
Uwe Paschen

This is almost Voltaire. :) "I will not harm you as long as you do not harm me. However, should you try to harm me, then I shall kill you..."

I do agree with "Freedom" of any thing, as long as that freedom does not compromise other peoples freedom. This not only as far as religion goes but on every level and every issue.

"The freedom of the one starts where the freedom of the other stops and the freedom of the other starts where the freedom of the one stops." "Freedom is nothing but an illusion and a pretext for abuse."

1
YankeeJim

Brilliant reference--Voltaire.

I fully understand the constraints of this logic. My feeling is that in the USA, for instance, we have pushed the envelope on freedom, and continue to do so. Libertarians argue that we have surrendered too much. Anti-abortion people believe "we" as in all of the rest of us who control government except them, have gone too far. Abortion rights people might argue the same from their viewpoint.

What I hope is that we advance the balance point of the equilibrium forward while recognizing the advance of intelligence and education.

I used to think the USSR may not have been wrong in squelching relgious freedom because it seemed to get in the way of modernization. Of course, the USSR wanted to edit a lot of behavior based on the notion that government knows best. Well, that is not always the case, is it?

1
Sputnic

Perhaps you may want to read the verses again! Jews and Christians are classed as believers ! These verses were aimed at pagans, pagans that were attacking Muslims. No war between Christians and Muslims took place during Mohammed's lifetime or the revelation of the Quran. Several wars involving certain jewish tribes did. Other verses talk of defence during attack. Similar examples can also be found in the Bible.

1
YankeeJim

I know nothing about the Islamic religion which is why I ask for those like you who are more informed to explain things for me. I believe what you are saying and kinow for a fact there are similar sayings in the Bible.

In the end, this is the 21st century and a large part of civilizations know right from wrong. I would go so far to say that the large number of Muslims who are poor and under educated have been left behind by people who are more fortunate.

The answer to ending this war between the impoverished and rich is for the richer nations to work closely with the poor nations to make life more fair in keeping with whatever belief system people want.

For instance, look at the wealth concentration in Saudi Arabia and Dubai; then look next door at Yemin and Somalia. Why such a big difference? Someone is exploiting someone else? Some people have found lucky claim to natural resources while others have not. Some people live in places where they unknowingly outstrip their location's capacity to support them, while some are more in control and better off.

The World is too small to shrug off the differences. Everyone who has the intellect to be responsible must seek greater responsibility.

1
Sputnic

Wealth certainly needs to be redistributed my friend ! There are verses that call for this to happen, they state that Allah has bestowed of His county upon people to see if they use it wisely and fairly. The rich go to hell if they do not share

0
YankeeJim

Hell is full up.

1
Sputnic

Probably will be, at least for a while !

3
Uwe Paschen

Pagans have as much a right to exist then any one else Sputnic. A religion that discriminates against a single group has no right to exist it self. 

Buddhist and Hindus are far more tolerant in their believes then Christian or Muslim for instance. Why Christianity went through the reformation and why Islam has entered the stage or reformation it self. It is a long process though and one that is already causing major clashes from with in. BTW, if you read the text above in the post you find the anther to your question in another post to the male insinuation of Allah. There are many more such example in scriptures. 

1
Sputnic

Those verses were speaking of a particular group of Pagans, the Pagans of mecca that had tried to murder a messenger of God, ie Mohammed. The Quran says to respect every religion and to seek peace as soon as possible when you are at war. Allah has no gender Paschen, an English translation may use the word He for reference only

1
YankeeJim

I have returned to my Druid roots because I like camp fires.

4
dustkicka

In the time of prophet Muhammad (saw), Muslims peacefully lived alongside non believers.
There is no place for extremism in any religion

1
YankeeJim

That is a practice that I believe in.

2
anarkissed

I've got no problem with people having a belief and holding it as true, but when they try and force me to agree, it gets ugly.  I've yet to see a judaic based religion which passes my logic tests but if you're not allowed to argue or disagree then, well, it's just tyrancy.  Nevermind if you think that you can disobey your own laws against cruelty and murder over it.  

These Jihadists tarnish the image of faithful people all over the world.

Blessed be, I hope the Lady can issue her corrections gently.

1
YankeeJim

Koran

The Clans

[33.60] If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a little while;
[33.61] Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering.

1
Sputnic

Desist at what ? Hitting a decent man walking down Walthamstow market with his 9 year old daughter, simply for being a Muslim. I often witnesed events like that as a child. A non Muslim stepped in to help. Nobody, Muslim or otherwise, sees those two "unbelievers" in the same light. God, by any name, I would imagine, will judge them very differently.

1
stacey renee

Who was Allah anyway? Was he not just a man who people believed was a profit?

1
Sputnic

Dont know if you are serious or not ! Allah is the Aramaic, and Arabic word for God. Aramaic is the name of the language spoken by Jesus

1
YankeeJim

Here is something from a site called Islam 101. I am not a Muslim, though I find this description a pretty good one.

In Arabic, Allah means literally the one God.  It is pretty easy to understand how different languages give the same thing different names.  Is it that unusual to hear Muslims call God another name, like "Allah", while you call him God or Lord?  Some people have no minds; in the last decade, a growing phenomenon was seen on the internet and in published literature.  Allah is said to be the “moon god” that Arabs worshiped, and Kaaba (The Muslims holiest place on Earth) is His temple.  The evidence for this theory is the crescent that appears on the top of many mosques all over the world plus a fabricated picture of the "moon god".

This idea is very dangerous.  If you believe that Muslims are worshiping an idol, then there is no basis even to talk to them.  They are pagan idolaters like Hindus and Buddhists.  It is alleged that although Islam is a monotheistic religion, the Muslims' only God is simply another idol that Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) chose (or in some versions of the story, he made it up). 

To invalidate this foolish theory, one has to take the story from different angles.

The crescent is not a symbol of Islam, but of the Ottoman Empire.  The Ottomans are those tribes that moved to Turkey from east and middle Asia.  They converted to Islam and built a huge Muslim Empire that ruled the whole Muslim world for centuries.  When they took Islam as a religion they started using the lunar calendar, the calendar that was used by Muslims, Jews and early Christians.  Even today, the flag of Turkey has a crescent on it.  There was no crescent on any mosque built before the Ottomans era. 

Prophet Abraham built the Kaaba for people to worship God. While pagan Arabs admitted this fact and even kept the stone where he used to stand to build the Kaaba (Abraham's station), they brought idols to the Kaaba and worshiped them to get closer to Abraham's Lord, Allah, God of gods.  Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) came with the monotheistic message of Islam.  Arabs defended these idols and refused to give up the religion of their fathers and grandfathers.  They offered to Muhammad a deal, that is to worship their gods for one year, and they worship Allah alone for one year.  A chapter of the Quran came with the response from God to this evil invitation:

[Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,  Nor will ye worship that which I worship.  To you be your Way, and to me mine. ]109:1-6

Later on, the Quran started calling Allah by other names.  One of those holy names was Al-Rahman (the Gracious).  Arabs wondered:"is this a new God?" The Quran responded again:

[Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. ]17:110

It is not a new god; it is a new name for the same God.  Allah has ninety nine names in Islam; all of them are holy and speak about different attributes of the same creator, almighty Allah.  As an example, read these verses of the Quran:

[Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god; Who knows (all things) both secret and open; He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god; the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.

He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Forms (or Colours). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare His Praises and Glory; and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.]59:22-24  

When Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came back to Mecca, he entered the city peacefully on the top of an army of 10,000 men, exactly as the Bible described him "pre-eminent above ten thousand." (Solomon 5:10).  He did not burn a single home; he did not harm a single person; he just went to the Kaaba and destroyed all the gods Arabs had there.  He kept nothing in the Kaaba.  Where is this picture of the moon god coming from? I don't know.  Did anyone of the pagan Arabs have a digital camera by then?

There is evidence that the word Allah existed before the birth of Muhammad PBUH for thousands of years.  It is probably the oldest name man used to call God.  Most likely, Adam used the word Allah to call the Lord.  On the other hand, the word "GOD" was born with the English language, less than ten centuries ago.  Can we say that all English speaking nations are pagans because they use the word "God"?  What about Chinese monotheists? How should they call God?

Prophet Muhammad's father’s name was Abdullah (The slave of Allah).  This name was common among Arab pagans and Jews.  Abdullah bin Salam was one of the first Jews to convert to Islam in Medina.  When Arabs call Allah in prayer they say: “Ya Allah” or “Allahoma”.  Aren't these words familiar to you?  “Alleluia” and “Elohim” are the words used to call Allah in the Bible.  In Hebrew, the suffix im means many.  So Elohim literally means many Allah(s).  This is a known way to express dignity and respect to almighty Allah by calling Him pleural. This phenomenon is known in Hebrew, Arabic, English and other languages. In Quran, the same pattern is seen many times.  For example, God says in the holy Quran:

[ We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). ]15:9. 

In the English translation of the Bible, you read, "Let us make man in our image”-Genesis 1:26-KJV. 

The word Allah is used in all Arabic translations of the Bible.  It was used in some English translations of the Bible like the original "Scofield Reference Bible"-reference: what is his name? by Deedat.  In the New Testament, Jesus is believed to cry before his death "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?”  Eloi is the exact Arabic word "Elahi" which comes from the same root as Allah.

I have no doubt that the word "Allah" is the oldest known name man called God with.  For those who choose to ignore this fact and transgress, Muslims have nothing to offer.  Allah says in the holy Quran:

[If any, after this, invent a lie and attribute it to Allah, they are indeed unjust wrong-doers.] 3:94

For Muslims, Allah is perfect.  He has no partners.  We worship Him and Him alone.  Our faith is summarized in the holy Quran:

[Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;  He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;  And there is none like unto Him.]112:1-4

0
Sputnic

A perfect summing up, sad to see you take the atheist view in your subsequent comment though. Many Hindus and Buddists actually believe in one, I hope many will follow soon. The earlyest Hindu Vedas speak of one God, and as Bhuda was a Hindu reformer, by extension that fact will hopefully not be lost on many Buddists. The Hindu god Ganesh is very similar sounding to one of the 99 names of Allah, Ganeesh

0
YankeeJim

In historical perspective, Islam came well after Christianity. My simplistic observation is that Jews invented the Old Testament (borrowing from ancient derivatives). Christ invented the New Testament, featuring himself, though the writers worked long after his death to document the teachings. Jews had the Old Testament; Christians had Christ; Arabs needed their own representative and along came the Prophet Mohammed who invented a new dimension.

Wiki reports the following:

"According to the traditionalist view, the Qur'an began with revelations on Prophet Muhammad's divine revelations in AD 610. The verses of the Quran were written down and memorized during his life. Makkah was conquered by the Muslims in the year AD 630. In 628 the Makkan tribe of Quraish and the Muslim community in Madina had signed a truce called the Treaty of Hudaybiyya beginning a ten-year period of peace, which was broken when the Quraish and their allies, the tribe of Bakr, attacked the tribe of Khuza'ah, who were allies of the Muslims. Prophet Muhammad died in June 632. The Battle of Yamama was fought in December of the same year, between the forces of the Rashidun Caliph Abu Bakr and Musailima.

Andrey Korotayev and his colleagues suggest to view the origins of Islam against the background of the 6th century AD Arabian socioecological crisis whose model is specified by Korotayev and his colleagues through the study of climatological, seismological, volcanological and epidemiological history of the period. They find that most sociopolitical systems of the Arabs reacted to the socioecological crisis by getting rid of the rigid supratribal political structures (kingdoms and chiefdoms) which started posing a real threat to their very survival. The decades of fighting which led to the destruction of the most of the Arabian kingdoms and chiefdoms (reflected in Ayyam al-`Arab tradition) led to the elaboration of some definite "antiroyal" freedom-loving tribal ethos. At the beginning of the 7th century a tribe which would recognize themselves as subjects of some terrestrial supratribal political authority, a "king", risked to lose its honour. However, this seems not to be applicable to the authority of another type, the "celestial" one. At the meantime the early 7th century evidences the merging of the Arabian tradition of prophecy and the Arabian Monotheist "Rahmanist" tradition which produced "the Arabian prophetic movement". The Monotheist "Rahmanist" prophets appear to have represented a supratribal authority just of the type many Arab tribes were looking for at this very time, which seems to explain to a certain extent those prophets' political success (including the extreme political success of Muhammad). (Andrey Korotayev, Vladimir Klimenko, and Dmitry Proussakov. Origins of Islam: Political-Anthropological and Environmental Context. Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae. 53/3–4 (1999): 243–276"

0
YankeeJim

History shows that religion is a human invention and coping behavior. Being spiritual is alright with me as it is so human.

0
Sputnic

A great bit of info you sourced there Yankeejim, there are many misconceptions surrounding Islam, thanks for helping to clear them up a bit. It is a sin to lie whoever you are, misconceptions and fabrications are dragged up every week, especially during various wars. I hope you will return to religion, it is of course your choice. The scientific miracles are proof to me, as is the existance of the humble woodpecker. Bad people manipulate religion to their own ends, it does not belong to them, it belongs to God as does everything else

0
LVTfan

You wrote, "Some people have found lucky claim to natural resources while others have not."Luck is not the right word for this.  It sounds so neutral, so "roll the dice." Privilege is closer to the reality -- private laws which permit to some and deny to others.  The root of the vast majority we have all over the world comes from some form of this claim of the right to privatize the value of natural resources on which all of us must depend.The good news is that remedying this is not difficult to do, once enough of us agree that this is the problem, or even a problem.  Simple taxes and royalties, collected through mechanisms which already exist, will suffice.  And the revenue generated can be used to reduce or eliminate taxes which weigh upon the economy and weigh on those who work or want to work.  A win-win situation, except if you're one of the "lucky" ones  -- whose "luck" will have, at last, run out.   They'll have to join the working world and become productive, instead of living off the fat of our land and our natural resources.  Sorry, Jed Clampett!  Sorry, Mr. Drysdale (was that his name?)  Finding is not the same as creating, and they ought to be rewarded accordingly.

0
lurker

Sputnic do you actually believe what you are saying or are you practising taqiya of kithman i.e. lying and withholding the truth to protect Islam.

I guess you told these people Islam means peace too when it's meaning is submission.

Oh yeah you also said Islam respect every religion this is blatantly untrue the earlier verses may be more friendly toward the people of the book but the later verses are the opposite and since you people believe the book is infallible the contradictions had to be ironed out by the law of abrogation which basically means that if a chronologically newer verse contradicts an earlier verse then the earlier verse is not followed.

example

"Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations."

Burton, Naskh, Encyclopaedia of Islam (EI)

0
lurker

YankeeJim

If you study enough history and the earliest civilizations I think it's pretty obvious religions are all man made and each new age borrows/plagiarises from the myths/religions of the past and creates it's own version so I mostly agree with this comment.

"In historical perspective, Islam came well after Christianity. My simplistic observation is that Jews invented the Old Testament (borrowing from ancient derivatives). Christ invented the New Testament, featuring himself, though the writers worked long after his death to document the teachings. Jews had the Old Testament; Christians had Christ; Arabs needed their own representative and along came the Prophet Mohammed who invented a new dimension."

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